If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?

and so worth what you pay for it.The Bible can be trusted as a Map or Guide toward How to Live and Why things are as they are. But that is all that it is, it is a map.If you buy a copy of the latest Rand McNally, it may well show you how to drive from Baltimore to San Francisco. It will offer a variety of routes to get from point A to point B. Some may be shorter, others perhaps more scenic, still others more challenging.But there are several problems. For one, it will not be up to date. There will be detours, construction and other changes along the way. It will give you some of the information you need but not all of it, and some of the information will certainly be incorrect or outdated.The Bible is like that. You need to take the information from the Bible and compare that to the reality you see around you. It does not matter if the map shows that the fastest way through Houston is I-10, if when you get there the road has been torn up and you need to detour, saying that the map shows the road as passable will not get you through.This is also true of the Bible. One good example is Genesis. The Map (Bible) shows Creation and the Universe one way. But when we look at the world around us, what we find is quite different.It makes little sense to rail that what we see must match the Map.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

of what is happening and I would love to see a thread on that. Here is an individual that allegedly lived not too many centuries after the Council of Nicea, yet even his very existance is questionable.Good subject, start a thread on it and we can go from there.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, that's a bunch off topic but afterall, it's your thread.First, there is absolutely nothing wrong with "Little Engine that Could". And if you follow that direction, there is little that you cannot do. It's one of those things that is essential during growing up and even adults need to return for a refresher at times.There are other similar things that are part of growing up. A few that I find myself returning to are the Tales of Narnia, the works of Joseph Campbell, Jacob Bronowski's Ascent of Man as well as the much earlier Lowell Lecture Series of the smae name, Mere Christianity, Kim and the Jungle Books. Each of these are parts of developing a knowledge of who you are and what the world around you is like.But you asked "why they have faith in the Bible?"I think I answered part of that above. It is a very good map, a guidebook. It's certainly not the only one and the more maps and guidebooks you have, the more you learn about the neighborhood. I would feel remise if I didn't also read the Koran and as many of the Jewish comments on the Talmud as possible. In addition, it's good to spend time looking at the other major religions and philosophies, the wonders of the Hindu sects, the richness of Buddhism and the other Eastern Philosophies.But they all seem to lead to a common point. They all point to a way of life, of living with others and the world itself, and most towards a life after death. And I think that is what so many people see, a guide for living and also a promise of life everlasting.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The Map is not the Territory.The Bible is NOT Christianity.If the Bible were to be proven to be nothing but tales told around a campfire, it would still have nothing to do with the validity of the message it contains, or with the existance of GOD.When Jesus tells the parable of the two house, one built on a foundation of rock, the other on shifting sand, it does not matter whether those two houses really existed or if he simply made the story up to illustrate a point.The truth that undlies the Bible is the lessons it teaches on how to live. That is what is important.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

even though I happen to believe he was real, it would still have no impact on the lesson to be learned from the story of his life, his mission and his death.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

First you asked What actually is the insirational story? It is of a God who so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son to suffer death on the cross so that all people might have everlasting life.Then you asked I don't know. If you are asking about those who take the Bible literally, then my only possible answer is that they may be reading the book but seem to be totally missing the message. As I said earlier, if someone could prove that the Bible was 100% fireside story and parable, it still would not change the message.Finally you asked about other religions. Today, there are four GREAT religions in the world. There are many more than four total, but the majority of religious people fall into one of the big four, Christian, Jew, Hindu or Muslim.Let's look at those four.There is the GOD of the Jews. That GOD later sent his son Jesus to get the message of salvation to a portion of the peoples that were outside the Jewish Faith. Still later, that very same GOD sent a messenger to Muhammad in an attempt to reach those that were not reached throuogh Christ's life and death.So the three religions, Islam, Christianity and Judaism all worship the same GOD, the GOD of Abraham and Isaac.Turning to the Hindu culture. It is an old, old religion, most likely predating even the Jews. And the basic belief is that their is one GOD. Only one GOD, that can be seen through various aspect. It is like the Christian Church views God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three attributes, one GOD. Interestingly, the Hindus accept the GOD of Abraham as the GOD as well as Jesus and the Holy Ghost. All, along with Vishnu and Brahma are attributes, aspects of the one GOD.So it looks like almost all of the religious prople in the world today actuall worship the same GOD. All paths do lead to enlightenment, as the Buddha would say.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Only if you first discount the GOD of Abraham and Isaac. You are right that Islam came after Christianity, but it is an offshoot of the Jewish faith just as Christianity is, and their book, the Koran was, like the Bible, given by the very same GOD. They worship the very same GOD as Christians.Then you go on Science is not a religion despite the lies people may tell you so your statement is silly and only hurts any possible credibility you might have.Further you ask which shows you haven't even bothered to study what you are criticizing. Actually, the whole book of Genesis is recognized in ISLAM including the story of the Garden of Eden. One big difference though in the ISLAMIC version is that they don't have the weak woman falling under the spell of the serpent and then taking advantage of the gullible male. In the Islamic version, the man and the woman stand as equal partners, both are tempted together and fail together.From the Koran Finally you asked and the answer is that Muhammad was taken to heaven by the Angel Gabriel.edited to correct the miststaement about Muhammad's death. He did die and I was confusing the earlier tale of his rise to heaven with his death.I appologize and I need to review MY material better.This message has been edited by jar, 05-28-2004 03:30 PM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You are correct. I was mistaken and confusing his death with the horse imprint encounter.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Although it has been many, many decades since I really studied the Hindu religion in any depth, I think their concept of GOD is not that far from the Semitic vision. GOD is undefineable in both. Just look at the problems that even a gathering or Christians has in defining GOD. There are probably at least N+1 definitions of GOD in a body of N Christians.The biggest point that I was trying to make is the Hindu practice of assigning attributes to names. For example, Brahmin is the Creator or the Creative Force. I hope that at least explains my thinking.Buddhism though is entirely different, and is not as much a religion as a philosopy. That is the big reason that I did not include either the Buddhists or the animists in my litany of religions.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

and I must admit, I certainly have been one of those guilty of wandering, IMHO, it is unimportant whether any of the Bible is literally true or not.I happen to be an Escher fan. One of my favorite prints is of a muddy road and was called Puddle. It doesn't matter if it is a drawing of something real, or if it is simply Escher playing with repetitions or math, it is still a drawing that I can explore for hours, constantly finding new items, things I had not notice before, new and wonderous relationships.For me, as with the Escher print, the question comes down to what is the purpose of the Bible.Is the Bible meant to be a science text? Is it a history? Is it simply entertainment?I believe that the Bible is meant as a guide to man's relationship with man, the world he lives in and the belief (and that is all that it is) of a life everlasting.One layer below that is the Bible as a historical document. At that level, older oral histories have been gathered and placed in writing. Much of the written history will point back in time hundreds of years before the author, and there, it will suffer from the same problems found in all other historical documents. Namely, it will be written from a given point of view. A history of the American Civil War (which was hardly civil) written by a Confederate supporter will vary greatly from one written by a Union supporter. We can expect that certain major points will be common to both, for example the dates and locations of battles or the order of march for various regiments, but the details will vary depending on the authors point of view and access to information.A third, still lower level will be the Bible as science. There I expect the least accuracy and the greatest variability. The tales of creation are a good example. The authors of those sections simply did not have the observations that have been made in the 6000 years or so since then, access to the tools that have given us views unimaginable to them, the additional knowledge in mathmatics and the relationships of the objects they saw with the unaided eye. They developed theories of creation and relationships of living things that worked well until additional capabilities and observations showed they were incorrect.So to answer the question first asked in the title of the thread. I believe that you can trust those parts of the Bible that pertain to the highest and primary level. The lessons about how to live your live, how to exist in the world, and the belief in an afterlife are, IMHO things that can be trusted.When it comes to the historical portions, some may well be accurate but they will, like all historical texts, be slanted to a particular point of view, and those parts that deal with a time far before the author, those that were copied from older oral traditions, will likely be the least reliable.And finally, as a Science text it is only of interest in the same sense that it is valuable to understand the Ptolemaic Theory of the Universe or the Theory of Humors and Desease as a method of understanding the thoughts and actions of the people at that time.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

IMHO, it does not matter which parts, if any, are literally true.There are many parts that we can say a simply NOT true. For example, the Flood story, the ARK, the Creation story are simply not true.Other parts, for example Exodus, are very likely not true.But that doesn't matter. Even if they have no more substance than the Iliad, the lessons that they teach are of value.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

is, IMHO, a very direct, pesonal and individual friendship. It really is far closer to that of a child with a wise parent than anything else.While the Bible can certainly be used as part of establishing that relationship, I think the awe and understanding that comes from observing the greater record GOD left us, the Universe we live in, plays and equal, perhaps even greater, part.I hope that I did not say that the Bible is worthless as Science Text. If so, I apologize. What I have tried to say that it is certainly valuable just like understanding other early theories that attempted to explain the world and all that is in it. The Ptolemaic Universe served people well for many years. It could be used to make valuable predictions and those predictions later were bourne out.But, like the Ptolemaic Universe, later observations showed that it was simply incorrect. Then, as with any scientific theory, once falsified, had to be abandoned. IMHO, much of the Science in the Bible is similar. The Creation Theory simply does not stand up to observations. The Flood simply does not stand up to observation. The ARK simply does not stand up to observation.They need to be abandoned as Scientific theories.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Very good Almeyda, you are on the path to becoming a Christian.Christianity is not the Bible.***************Added all below this point*********In the post above, you said that is the Bible does not turn out to be literally true, then GOD is lying and you will go back to being an atheist.If you really have faith in GOD and in the message that is transmitted by the Bible, then it should not matter to you whether the Bible is literally true or not. The Bible is but a book. It is little more than a Anthology, a collection of smatterings of writings gathered by a team of thousands of editors over thousands of years. It is a theological text designed to teach how to live with yourself and others, the world around you and your GOD.But it is not GOD.It is ONE of two records left by GOD for you to study. The other, the one far less likely to be influenced by political whim or favor, is the world as it exists around you.Before you decide that GOD is lying, it might be good to examine what GOD, not man, wrote.Go to a planetarium. Look through the tellescope. You will see world that are far more than 6000 years away. God has left us direct evidence of how old the universe is, and far more reliable evidence than the Bible.Really examine the fossil record. Don't just surf, go to museums and search for some fossils yourself. Find a deep canyon and examine the strata yourself. Study genetics and really look at what we can learn from DNA.GOD has left you all the information, all the data needed to make up your own mind. It is up to you though to read it.This message has been edited by jar, 05-29-2004 12:38 AM

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

The Bible is not a Science Book. It is not even a very good history book.The Bible deals with Holy. With your relationship with God and with Man.GOD does not lie and when you look at the world you find that Evolution, Old Earth, Big Universe, No Flood, No ARK, are all true and written clearly in the world around us.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Well, first let's look at your example of science. That certainly cannot be called science, perhaps history, but nothing more. It does not answer any of either the engineering or scientific questions that would be needed to learn anything from it. Was the pool above the city? How did he build the conduit? What was used to seal the joints? How was elevation calculated?Sorry, that is not science in any way.And when it comes to history, the problem is trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. The problem comes when we try to accept the Bible as Historically accurate. It is like trying to pin down historic references in the Arthur Legends or the Iliad. We know for example, that if the Exodus happened, it was no where near on the magnitude described in the Bible. If it had been, someone else would have noticed and commented. We know that the time is off or that parts were exaggerated, for example consider the occupancy issues revolving around Jericho.The Bible is, IMHO, an important and essential document, not just to Christians but all people. But trying to make it into something more than it really is simply leads to opportunity for non-believers to tear it down and trivialize it.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion