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Author Topic:   Prophecy for Buzsaw
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5939 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 211 of 385 (142305)
09-14-2004 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Buzsaw
09-12-2004 9:15 PM


buzsaw
Yes but that is hardly miraculous since the fact of the matter is that any dream interpretation would suffice if done right. First off the dream was forgotten by the king as referenced by this statement.
The king answered and said to the Chaldeans, The thing is gone from me
The astrologers are unable to bring forth any help because their tactics require that the dream be given them before they proceed with interpretation,which could easily be made up on the spot.Daniel,however, goes them one better and actually has the balls to tell the King what it was he dreamt of.After all what did he have to lose?
Then in the passages that follow.
But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came [into thy mind] upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for [any] wisdom that I have more than any living, but for [their] sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.
Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness [was] excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof [was] terrible.
Dan 2:32 This image's head [was] of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
Dan 2:33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet [that were] of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
Dan 2:36 This [is] the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou [art] this head of gold.
Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40 And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all [things]: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, [but] it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream [is] certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
Here Daniel plays the big trump card.A king is in a position that is precarious at best.If you can ease his burdens by soothing his fears of what will become of his kingdom over time then it follows that he will be grateful.Now the dream sequence Daniel laid out was vague at best{just like astrology}so that Daniel could put whatever spin he wished to it.
From there it was just a matter of telling the King that he was favoured by a higher power and therefore he need not worry.He asured him that his kingdom was favored over all and that it would endure.It is no different than the astrology that one can pick up in any newspaper in the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Buzsaw, posted 09-12-2004 9:15 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 09-14-2004 10:28 PM sidelined has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 212 of 385 (142309)
09-14-2004 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
09-13-2004 10:47 PM


Interesting Buz.
You say...
I see you more as a troll claiming you're a Christian but denying about everything Biblical and Christian.
and...
True Christians assume the responsibilities of Christianity so as to hope to enjoy the blessings and rewards.
I have to take exception to those two statements.
First, can you show any examples of when I have denied either Christianity or the message of the Bible?
Second, I believe that Christians assume the responsibilities of Christianty because that is the best way to Love GOD and to love others as yourself. It's not about the rewards or personal gain, but because Jesus both by his life and teachings showed us a good way to live.
You don't have to be Christian to do good and live for the here and now.
I agree that you do not have to be a Christian to do good. IMHO, that is exactly what GOD told us through Jesus as shown in Matthew 25. What I have not said is that people should live for the here and now but rather in the here and now. Big difference between those two.
As to Matthew 6, if you read the whole Chapter it is again talking about how to live in the here and now and not live for the here and now. After all, a big part of the chapter is the "Our Father".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 09-13-2004 10:47 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 09-14-2004 10:19 PM jar has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 385 (142465)
09-14-2004 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by jar
09-14-2004 9:48 AM


First, can you show any examples of when I have denied either Christianity or the message of the Bible?
Do you believe he raised Lazarus from the dead?.......
That he changed the water in to wine?........
That he walked on the water?..........
That he rose from the dead bodily the third day?.......
That he was born of a virgin?.........
That he is the "way, the truth, and the life?........
That no man comes to the father, God, but through him?......
That when we pray he told us after he goes to heaven to pray to the the Father in his name?
That he prophesied future events such as the dispersion of the Jews and their return to Jerusalem in the latter days?
Which of the above, if any do you believe?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by jar, posted 09-14-2004 9:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 09-14-2004 10:30 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 385 (142466)
09-14-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by sidelined
09-14-2004 9:32 AM


Sideline, you need to go back and read the whole account very thoughtfully and carefully if you think this was an easy feat, coming up with the whole dream as well as the interpretation from nothing, zilch to start from. To say this is something astrologers might do any day is just plain silly, don't you think? It was a super spectacular unheard of miracle, and you should be willing to admit that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by sidelined, posted 09-14-2004 9:32 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by sidelined, posted 09-14-2004 10:49 PM Buzsaw has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 215 of 385 (142467)
09-14-2004 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
09-14-2004 10:19 PM


First, can you show me where any of those are the message of the Bible?
In all honesty, it does it matter whether any of those are true or not.
Personally. I believe "That he rose from the dead bodily the third day?......." and "That he was born of a virgin?.........".
But those are only my own personal beliefs.
The others are of no great importance to the message of the Bible and I don't know if they are true or simply parables.
I definitely do not believe "That no man comes to the father, God, but through him?......" means that one must profess Jesus to Love GOD and I have shown the Biblical passages that support that position.
Jesus said, Love GOD and to Love others as you love yourself.
It really is that simple.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 09-14-2004 10:19 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2004 12:41 AM jar has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5939 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 216 of 385 (142471)
09-14-2004 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by Buzsaw
09-14-2004 10:28 PM


Buzsaw
I did read the entire account before I posted the reply.It is extremely easy since David could make up a dream.{Nebuchadnezzar did not remember the dream.} Then it was simple to place vague references to dreamlike qualities and adorn it with things the King wants to hear.The king kept charlatans around anyway so he was obviously fantasy-prone.As I said being in a position of power necessitates great pressures on a man and just like the rest of us we want to hear soothing tales especially about the things we find near and dear to our hearts.No miracle here ,just a better level of salesmanship.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 09-15-2004 05:41 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Buzsaw, posted 09-14-2004 10:28 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2004 12:56 AM sidelined has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 385 (142853)
09-17-2004 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
09-14-2004 10:30 PM


First, can you show me where any of those are the message of the Bible?
In all honesty, it does it matter whether any of those are true or not.
Personally. I believe "That he rose from the dead bodily the third day?......." and "That he was born of a virgin?.........".[/qs]
This appears to be an interesting and inovative spin........your ambiguous reply which simply quotes my question. What I'm after, Jar is not whether you believe my questions, but for your forthright answer [i]to my questions[/qs].
1. Do you believe that Jesus rose from the dead bodily on the third day?
2. Was Jesus born of a virgin?
The others are of no great importance to the message of the Bible and I don't know if they are true or simply parables.
I definitely do not believe "That no man comes to the father, God, but through him?......" means that one must profess Jesus to Love GOD and I have shown the Biblical passages that support that position.
Again, please clarify. What are you saying?
Jesus said, Love GOD and to Love others as you love yourself.
It really is that simple.
No, it's not that simple. The Bible consists of two Testaments, with a lot of important doctrine in each. The above is important, but doesn't address the questions I've posted. Why have you not answered concerning the miracles. Please answer the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by jar, posted 09-14-2004 10:30 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 09-17-2004 10:12 AM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 218 of 385 (142855)
09-17-2004 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by sidelined
09-14-2004 10:49 PM


I did read the entire account before I posted the reply.It is extremely easy since David could make up a dream.{Nebuchadnezzar did not remember the dream.} Then it was simple to place vague references to dreamlike qualities and adorn it with things the King wants to hear.
You meant to say Daniel. Right, I hope? You're alleging Daniel made up a dream and convinced the king it was indeed his dream? Further, you are alleging the king was so gullible that Daniel could persuade him that a bogus dream was indeed his dream? I doooon't thinnnnk sooo. We've all had dreams which we couldn't remember, but if womeone could come up with the dream, recall would verify whether it was the dream. The king was no stupnagel, Sidelined, as you're insinuating.
1. Either Daniel came up with the bonafide dream of Neb or...
2. Neb simply claimed he couldn't remember the dream so as to know for sure that the one interpreting was not faking a farce interpretation to his dream.
The king kept charlatans around anyway so he was obviously fantasy-prone.As I said being in a position of power necessitates great pressures on a man and just like the rest of us we want to hear soothing tales especially about the things we find near and dear to our hearts.No miracle here ,just a better level of salesmanship.
No, this's not necessarily great for the king.
1. His kingdom was to fall in the dream.
2. This same Daniel was to later interpret other stuff for the king, the last being that the king would go crazy for some years, not something the king was likely wanting to hear.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by sidelined, posted 09-14-2004 10:49 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by sidelined, posted 09-17-2004 9:45 AM Buzsaw has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5939 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 219 of 385 (142902)
09-17-2004 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Buzsaw
09-17-2004 12:56 AM


buzsaw
We've all had dreams which we couldn't remember, but if womeone could come up with the dream, recall would verify whether it was the dream. The king was no stupnagel, Sidelined, as you're insinuating.
I am insinuating no such thing because I do not no what a stupnagel is.Could you define that for me? Merriam-webster has no such word so I would appreciate this.And yes I did mean Daniel not David.
Memories are not accurate even in waking times so please do not try to use that line of reasoning.Daniel simply did the his best to play off of what he did know.
First the King did not recall the dream and ,two,the King openly said his spirit was troublred by the dream.Off those two pieces of information Daniel simply played to the Kings needs by constructing dream like imagery consistent with a dream that would trouble a person especially one that is fantasy prone.Just because a man is King does not make him less gullible,to the contrary such position likely serves to heighten such qualities.
Also imagine what it would require of the King to admit if he said that Daniel was lying.
2. Neb simply claimed he couldn't remember the dream so as to know for sure that the one interpreting was not faking a farce interpretation to his dream.
So He was bearing false witness is that what you are claiming here?
This same Daniel was to later interpret other stuff for the king, the last being that the king would go crazy for some years, not something the king was likely wanting to hear.
Yes however after being that long under the influence of Daniels' guidance it would be difficult for him to have to admit that it was all a farce since this would be,at the least, political suicide.It would be similar to people who invest in a scheme like free energy paying more and more money into it even after it has been shown to be bullshit because to not do so would be embarrassing and admittance of a mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2004 12:56 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2004 9:10 PM sidelined has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 220 of 385 (142904)
09-17-2004 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Buzsaw
09-17-2004 12:41 AM


Jezze Buz, what could be clearer than saying I believe and then quoting your exact question?
I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and rose three days after he "died and was buried".
I do not believe that you have to profess belief in Jesus or God to be saved.
Why have you not answered concerning the miracles. Please answer the questions.
I most definitely did answer your question about the miracles. I said it doesn't matter if they are true or not.
And finally, yes, it really is that simple.
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. That is, IMHO, it. That is all that is required and if you do that to the best of your ability, you (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Agnostic, Satanist, Atheist, Zoroastrian, Pagan, Infidel) will have a good life here and in heaven.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2004 12:41 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2004 8:59 PM jar has replied

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3078 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 221 of 385 (142985)
09-17-2004 5:30 PM


Buzsaw
Jar writes:
Message 220 Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. That is, IMHO, it. That is all that is required and if you do that to the best of your ability, you (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Agnostic, Satanist, Atheist, Zoroastrian, Pagan, Infidel) will have a good life here and in heaven.
Why anyone would debate against this whacko nonsense is beyond me.
I know you despise me Buzsaw, but please don't waste another minute of your life with this type of ignorance. OTOH, Jar is not ignorant, which makes this comment a ruse to infuriate protestants - either scenario is very bad.

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by jar, posted 09-17-2004 7:22 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 223 by NosyNed, posted 09-17-2004 7:35 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 225 by Buzsaw, posted 09-17-2004 9:05 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 222 of 385 (143003)
09-17-2004 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Cold Foreign Object
09-17-2004 5:30 PM


Re: Buzsaw
I know you despise me Buzsaw, but please don't waste another minute of your life with this type of ignorance. OTOH, Jar is not ignorant, which makes this comment a ruse to infuriate protestants - either scenario is very bad.
I AM a protestant.
This message has been edited by jar, 09-17-2004 06:30 PM

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-17-2004 5:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 223 of 385 (143004)
09-17-2004 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Cold Foreign Object
09-17-2004 5:30 PM


Uh, WT?
Speaking of whacko nonsense; Did you want the LLM thread reopened or not? You did, after all, bring it up again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-17-2004 5:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-17-2004 9:50 PM NosyNed has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 224 of 385 (143011)
09-17-2004 8:59 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by jar
09-17-2004 10:12 AM


Jezze Buz, what could be clearer than saying I believe and then quoting your exact question?
I believe Jesus was born of a virgin and rose three days after he "died and was buried".
Ok, Jar. You're on record as stating that Jesus was born of a virgin and rose again tree days after he died and was buried. I assume that means he rose bodily from the grave. Is that correct?
I do not believe that you have to profess belief in Jesus or God to be saved.
Jesus stated these words in John 3:16: FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, THAT WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHOULD NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE.
And this in I John 5:11,12,13. This is the record that God has given to us eternal life. He that has the son has life and he that has not the son of God has not life. These thing have I written to you who believe on the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life.
These are but a couple of dozens of refernces stating that belief in Jesus is required.
As for professing that belief, Jesus said, "Whoever shall confess me before men him will I confess before my Father which is in Heaven, but whoever denies me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in Heaven. Matthew 10:32,33
And in Romans 10:9, Paul, Jesus's apostle said this, corroborating Jesus's statement: "If you shall confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved.
What do you do with these, Jar?
I most definitely did answer your question about the miracles. I said it doesn't matter if they are true or not.
And finally, yes, it really is that simple.
I didn't ask you if it mattered. I ask if you believe they happened as the scripture states they did. Does your 'yes' mean you do believe the Biblical record that they happened as stated?
Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. That is, IMHO, it. That is all that is required and if you do that to the best of your ability, you (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Agnostic, Satanist, Atheist, Zoroastrian, Pagan, Infidel) will have a good life here and in heaven.
But that's contrary to what Jesus and the apostles taught. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me. These other folks don't go through Jesus. I didn't condemn them. Jesus and the apostles have made it clear that their good deeds aren't enough. "For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God; not by works, lest any man should boast." Ephesians 2:8,9
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by jar, posted 09-17-2004 10:12 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by jar, posted 09-17-2004 9:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 225 of 385 (143012)
09-17-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Cold Foreign Object
09-17-2004 5:30 PM


Re: Buzsaw
I know you despise me Buzsaw, but
It is you, bud who despises me, the Biblical fundy. If you care to retract and apologize about the terrible things you inferred about me and other Biblical fundamentalists, those of us who believe, teach and follow the fundamenals of the Bible, things between you and me can be righted. Otherwise things remain the same......not good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-17-2004 5:30 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

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