Prophecy for Buzsaw

You're painting Jesus with a skimpy little thin brush, choosing to ignore and/or reject 99% of what he taught. So I take it you are choosing to ignore the specifics of my questions and points which I've posted? Never worry, not being a fundy creo, nobody will likely call you on the carpet for that as they/you do me.

Miraculous thigs like healing the sick, helping out with the drinks at a feast, feeding the hungry, raising the dead and casting out the demons, providing salvation from sin and entrance to Heaven, dying for the sins of the people, providing prophetic warning for prepartation to evade disaster and judgement, etc are not loving things for Jesus to do??This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-18-2004 09:43 PM

We were trying to establish how much of Christianity and the Bible you, as a professed Christian believe in. What matters in our dialog is not how much the miracles matter, but which if any of them you believe to be true and actually happened. You haven't forthrightly answered that.

No, you haven't answered my specific questions even once until this post. Now, we're getting to some answers. Thanks. Mayby not for you, but it certaily would change things for me. Why would I waste my time, energy and resources in a ideology which turns out to be a falacy and a hoax. Why should I have any reason to believe in anything Jesus said if he claimed he walked on water and really didn't? Why should it be any harder to walk on water than to raise Lazarus from the dead? Why should it be any more difficult or unusual for one who could change water into wine to prophesy the future? If he said the Jews would be dispersed and return in the latter days why shouldn't I believe that just as much as I should believe he was born of a virgin without a human father? Who are you or me to pick and choose which of Jesus's claims we should believe?Please understand that I'm not trying to judge you here, Jar. I'm simply trying to get into your head a bit and see why you as a professing Christian never ever seem to take the Biblical or Christian side in any of the debates. I've never known you to lend support to the notion that there is prophecy of future events in the Bible when in fact about a third of the Bible is prophetic of future events from the time they were written. But you debate on the basis of and in support of polytheism. You can't have it both ways. The Bible is loaded with text about how God hates false doctrine, warns about false prophets/teachers, and in fact how he judges and condemns Israel and others for trusting in other gods than himself. ......by whom all things were made.But you debate for secular origins, without the implimentation of intelligent design. Which is it? But you debate that he's not the only saviour/way to God the Father, that sin needs no sacrificial offering, and that judgement from above is not a loving thing for God to do But you debate against all Biblical prophetic prophecies and that life evolved by NS. I don't remember of you ever acknowledging a need for remission of sins. Are you now going on record as to acknowledging that need for all humans, all having sinned and some time or another? What is the baptism you are acknowledging? Have you personally had it? So you don't trust Jesus's claim here as being viable? Read the whole verse in John 14:6. It means no man comes to the Father buy by him, Jesus. Jesus made the claim. You've already said you reject that one. Where has God the Father specifically said Jesus was wrong to make this claim? Paul said "there is one God, and one mediatior between God and men, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS I Tim 2:5. So you don't believe that? But Jesus taught his disciples otherwise. See John 16:23,24 where Jesus said this after he told them they would see him no more, for he would be leaving them: "In that day you shall ask me nothing. Verily, I say to you, Whatever you shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Before this you asked nothing in my name: ask and you shall receive, that your joy may be full." Other scriptures back this up. This thing of asking in his name was to be a new thing after the temple and sacrifices were finished. They would no longer need priests, sacrifices and temples, for Jesus fulfilled all that need by his vicarious sacrificial death and resurrection as both sacrifice and intercessor. Thus the temple Holy of Holies veil was torn by God from top to bottom so as to render it no more in use. What then did he mean, when he said in Luke 21 that "Jerusalem shall be occupied by gentile nations until the times of the Gentiles is finished?"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-20-2004 08:56 AM

That this love underlies and motivates many things does not diminish, negate or obfuscate the specific doctrines of Jesus, the prophets and the apostles as you are attempting to do with it. If this's all you understand, accept and recognize from the Bible and Christianity, your understanding, knowledge and appreciation for your professed religion is deficient, indeed. The devils/demons appear to have more of an appreciation and respect for Jehovah God and his words than you, Jar, for it says "they believe and tremble!"

Hi Marcos. I appreciate the post with your overview. Now, this being a prophecy thread, it might be best to focus the discussion on the prophecies rather than so much on the Sabbath. I am a Sabbatarian who worships on the Sabbath, but were it not for a good seventh day church to worship with, I'd likely worship on Sunday and continue to rest on the sabbath. I've been until the last few years 56 years a Sunday church person and that was also my rest day. God saved me, blessed me and sustained me as he has also blessed millions of Sunday brethren, but I do believe keeping the Sabbath (7th day) holy has been a step in the right direction for me and my wife.I do not judge others concerning eating and drinking or the Sabbath as I understand the verse, but do admonish concerning these things as to what is scriptural, and you are right in that the 7th day is, has been and always will be the 7th day. I also drink a little wine and beer as Jesus our lord and saviour also both made, provided for others and drank wine, beer not being produced then. SDAs and other Christians, imo, should not judge others for eating and drinking moderately and concerning any Sabbaths. Perhaps a thread on this subject would be good sometime.In this thread I'd like to discuss with you and others some of our differences on the prophecies. I believe Uriah Smith has the Vatican as the beast and pope as antichrist or something like that. I would be happy to do friendly debate with you on this if I understand correctly about Smith and offer my reasons for differing with SDA on this and other prophetic doctrine. Being very busy with a major business move ongoing I will need to keep it to shorter specific posts, covering one thing at a time. Thanks brother Marcos.

Hi Marcos. You're posting way too much for me to handle in my busy schedule. I will begin with this long post and cover what I can. I've been outa town nearly all day today and will be out most of tomorrow, but will begin and see how far I can go. I appreciate the work you go to in order to be thorough and complete, so I am looking forward to discussing Rev 17, 18 and Rev 13 as well as Daniel 7 concerning the ten horned beast and Mystery Babylon. I know. I'm still persistently pounding patiently and prayerfully on these rigid rocks/hearts here in town, looking for evidences of cracks in some of them. Other rocks/hearts as hard as these have been broken, so hopefully some will here and we'll see some remarkable conversions as God's Holy Spirit works mightily in the minds and hearts of men and women. Well put. Rather than respond to the scriptures references you posted concerning the scriptures, study, etc, I'll simply say we agree as to the import of the scriptures in determining truth. I see the big revivals, etc as having happened from the time of the reformation until about the mid 20th century. From there it goes downhill. I see ever increasingly emerging apostacy/falling away/departure from truth from mid 20th century and ongoing until the 2nd advent and Armageddon. This falling away from truth/apostacy is prophesied by Paul in II Thessalonians chapter 2 where it is explained that when truth is removed/set aside by apostacy the way is paved for emergence of antichrist. Again, I see this as waning now and over, overall, but sporadic revival will fire up here and there where the condition becomes suitable and compatible. I am aware, however that SDAs seems to be on a roll spiritually and numerically, thanks to 3 ABN television over Sky Angel as well as a rigorous missionary effort. SDA, imo is getting more evangelical as others are becoming less so. Though I don't agree with you on some prophecies and other doctrines such as hell, I do respect you people as exemplary Christians and wise in many areas including nutrition, reverence for God and so forth. In spite of our differences, you can count me in in for this effort. From the gitgo, beginning with the apostles, there have been differences in opinion which I don't catagorize as necessarily 'doctrines of devils,' but nevertheless erroneous. I believe it depends on how important those differences become as to overall doctrine. The persecutions via the popes and bishops of Vatican City were alluded to by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, imo, as coming before the end time of the age when the great tribulation via antichrist and beast comes. Marcos, this's why I appreciate the way you debate. You clearly state your position so as for the counterpart to either agree or effectively refute. As for your above statement, I'm afraid it's going to be REFUTE! I know mention is made at the end of your Scripture reference of the commandments of God in general, but nothing specifically about the Sabbath and Sunday relative to the mark of the beast. This is where you begin to go helter-skelter with the beast prophecy. You need to rather go to specific reference to the beast, the mark and note all the data given in those references. The 10 horned beast is mentioned in three places in the entire Bible, i.e. Revelation 13, 14, 17 and Daniel 7. You compile all the data together gleaned from these chapters and you come up with who/what the beast is and how the beast relates to Mystery Babylon.That's as far as I want to go until I receive your response and am able to comment. Thanks.

So I see we have a difference as to where to begin our search for the truth, i.e. the man's book or the Bible. Wouldn't it be wiser to begin with the Biblical texts concerning the beast and Mystery Babylon, then see how the book fares? I've heard several of your 3ABN prophecy preachers cover the subject and am fairly aware of where you are on this.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-20-2004 10:36 PM

I didn't find a chart, but as for the Atlantic hurricanes, the following link seems to support Marcos's contention that at least there is an increasing amount of disastrous storms. Whether these are man made or not, imo, is irrevelant as to prophetic significance. The apocalypse of Revelation as well as some OT prophets have disastrous apocalyptic weather prophesied for what is referred to as the latter days when God's veangeful wrath emerges upon planet earth's apostate inhabitants. Wikipedia(The link doesn't seem to work, but you can copy the link above, paste it on google search, go to bottom of page, about last paragraph for the statement.)NOTE: The link says, "in terms of devastating huricanes." This list is devastating catagory 5 huricanes which reached cat 5 sometime during their existence and reached landfall, causing significant destruction.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-21-2004 08:40 PM

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz

Oookay, Marcos, but 3 ABN seems to be the best of what I've seen of SDA so far. I like a lot of what they produce, especially their high quality of inspirational music their evangelical approach and their health programs.This's not the way I go about searching out truth, but I'll check out the article and get back to you. The Biblical text you came up with for interpreting the mark of the beast just doesn't hack it, though and if this is where we're going with the article, we're headed way out in left field for a starter. Not good.

It also prophecies that the sun and moon will be darkened, that the 2nd advent of Jesus will be "with clouds," that "Jehovah will go with the whirlwinds of the south." (Zechariah 9:14), more whirlwind prophecy in Isaiah 41:16, that there will be 100 lb hail stones (Revelation 16:21 and some OT prophetic hail), that there will be earthquakes in many different/diverse places (Olivet Discourse)and Revelation 16:17 the mother of all earthquakes shaking down the islands and cities of the planet, poluted stagnet red waters, drout big time, 'evil' (likely rabid) beasts and pestalence of all kinds etc also prophesied for the GRAND MIX. Isaiah says when all is said and done FEW MEN WILL BE LEFT UPON EARTH. Hang onto your hats n batten down the hatch!! Repent and be converted for resurrection day, because the waves r gonna get rough!!

As I said, Jesus comes with clouds. With clouds comes storms. That's a given, and we're seeing more clouds and more storms for sure, here in Eastern US. They come rapid fire off the West coast, one after another, over the Rockies and on East with the prevailing winds, not to mention the hurricanes. Devastating ornadoes are ever on the increase in intensity and frequency as these fronts move across the continent. Since a kid in the 30s and 40s I've watched the clouds continually on the increase, even in my home state of Wyoming as well as here now in the East from what they were 50 and 60 years ago.

My comment pertained to Marcos's thoroughness in stating his position so as to know exactly where he stands. I stand by that.My point about the weather is that your implication that earthquakes and pestalences are not all that's prophesied in the Bible concerning latter day weather. With clouds comes bad weather as I've shown the prophecies to verify.

Buz buzzin outa town in the buzbus. Have a good'n, all.

Yes, and you didn't need to say so, because I said so when I posted it. I posted the link address, nevertheless so as to give proper credit for the quote. I have since edited the post with directions for accessing the link. This is what I edited:Buz edit: Rei: 1. Correction: These were not my dates. They were the link link chart dates which I quoted.2. No Rei. Had you read the link quote opening statement carefully and if you had not CROPPED the REST of your link chart out which shows which ones were devastating landfall storms, you would've seen that the link list was correct from 1935, the date from which the statement begins from. Your link doesn't show the significant late ones which my link list does include. The damaging landfall cat 4,5 storms which your link shows in the landfall column from 1935 on agree with the link list I posted of devastating storms up as far as your chart goes. You should've noted that, imo. Mmmm, no, I won't say it. I won't, I won't!! This message has been edited by buzsaw, 09-21-2004 09:32 PM

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The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buz