|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total) |
| |
ChatGPT | |
Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/0 |
Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
Author | Topic: Prophecy for Buzsaw | |||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
We were trying to establish how much of Christianity and the Bible you, as a professed Christian believe in. What matters in our dialog is not how much the miracles matter, but which if any of them you believe to be true and actually happened. You haven't forthrightly answered that. Well, I've answered this several times but I'm willing to go over it yet again. First, IMHO, it does not matter if ANY incident, event, person or story in the Bible are true. The whole book could be fiction and and nothing would change. You want to know what I believe and I guess this sums it up pretty well.
quote: buzsaw writes: Do you believe he raised Lazarus from the dead?.......That he changed the water in to wine?........ That he walked on the water?.......... That he rose from the dead bodily the third day?....... That he was born of a virgin?......... That he is the "way, the truth, and the life?........ That no man comes to the father, God, but through him?...... That when we pray he told us after he goes to heaven to pray to the the Father in his name? That he prophesied future events such as the dispersion of the Jews and their return to Jerusalem in the latter days? Which of the above, if any do you believe? Let me go down your list. I have no clue about Lazarus. Turning water into wine sounds like the kind of thing Jesus would do, if he were here today I imagine he'd make a beer run. Is it true, who knows. Walking on water? Probably exageration. The next two are covered in the Nicene Creed, a statement of what I believe. That he is the way, the truth and the life? What the hell does that mean? That no man comes to the father but through him? GOD himself has told us that that is wrong. As I've said numerous times, that is simply wrong. We can pray to GOD directly and don't need to pray in Jesus name. Of course whe can also pray directly to Jesus. In fact, praying, IMHO, is far more a conversation than prayer anyway. No, I don't think he predicted the dispersion or reassembly of the Jews. Of course, I don't believe in the latter days idea anyway. IMHO, "He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end." is a very personal and ongoing thing. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
May I suggest you read the bible and be "open" and listen to what proceeds forth from God? Well, I've been reading the Bible (up until I was four or five I was having it read to me) daily. So far I've worn out three of them and my current Bible may well be on it's last leg. It's looking pretty dogeared. On the normal three year cycle that means I've been through the Bible word by word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, book by book something over twenty times.
I just hope these aren't seeds of doubt come to test you. Test me? When they really don't make a difference in the message I don't quite understand what could be tested? Jesus said, Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. He said these are the two Great Commandments and that all the law and the prophets hang on them. It really is as simple as that. This message has been edited by jar, 09-19-2004 09:32 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I think that the difference between your approach to the Bible and mine is that I do not believe that the Bible can be taken literally. I see the Bible as having been written by men, to an audience of their time, using the knowledge they had at the time and often with purposes other than inspired writing, often simply messages designed to further political or social conditions of the day.
Most of John and the works of Paul fall into this category as well as most of the OT. As I have said before, The Map is Not the Territory. The Bible is not Christianity and Christianity is not GOD. The message of the Bible is to Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. That does not mean profess Jesus. That does not mean profess GOD. That does not mean even acknowledging GOD's existence. It means doing things. It means Show your faith by your actions. It's not what you say but what you do that counts. You ask, " Why should I have any reason to believe in anything Jesus said if he claimed he walked on water and really didn't? ", and that is a typical question. Let me try to answer it. Assume for a second that the incidents such as Jesus walking on water were no more than embellishments added by folk to get attention. Assume they are simply typical additions added to any myth as we see even today. Does that change the value of the basic message? If the tale of Babe Ruth pointing to left fied before hitting a homer is pure myth, does that change in anyway his record? The message of Christ's life is very simple. It is a story of how to live. It is a guide to us to help us live well. I am not telling you what to believe. I am not saying that you should not believe the Bible literally. You asked, rather, what I believe. And I told you.
I'm simply trying to get into your head a bit and see why you as a professing Christian never ever seem to take the Biblical or Christian side in any of the debates. I don't think you'll find that quite true. If you examine what I have written I believe you will find that I have always supported the Christian beliefs. What I have not supported is taking the Bible literally. GOD gave us intellegence. He expects us to use it wisely. GOD also left us a record directly, one not written by man. It is the universe around us. Where the record that GOD left us conflicts with the record written by man, I believe the record GOD gave us over the Bible.
But you debate on the basis of and in support of polytheism. Nope, don't think so. Can you point to some place where I have supported polytheism?
But you debate for secular origins, without the implimentation of intelligent design. I do not believe that GOD intentionally created man or that mankind has any special place or worth in GOD's eyes. I believe that all life arose through evolution and natural selection. I do believe that all of the wonderous laws we are beginning to understand that lead to what we see today were the thoughts of GOD. I do believe that the thing that chaged the stae of the primal singularity was GOD.
But you debate that he's not the only saviour/way to God the Father, that sin needs no sacrificial offering, and that judgement from above is not a loving thing for God to do Yes, Yes and no. Jesus said "Love GOD. He did not say "Love me". Jesus was the full and suficienct sacrifice for our sins. No other sacrifice is needed. And I have always said that Judgement from above is a loving thing and will be done that way.
I don't remember of you ever acknowledging a need for remission of sins. Are you now going on record as to acknowledging that need for all humans, all having sinned and some time or another? What is the baptism you are acknowledging? Have you personally had it? Not only have I acknowledged it, I have even posted the confession from the BCP. I was baptised at an early age. During baptism, since you are a child, your parents and god-parents assume the duties needed to get you to the age when you can assume responsibility for yourself. During confirmation, you renew those vows and assume the responsibilities for yourself. I hope this helps you understand my position and theology. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
If people like Jar, PaulK, Brian, Charles Knight, mark24, Dan Carrol, mike the wiz, and many others that do not fear God and repent, they WILL NOT receive the necessary shelter to escape the calamities that will befall the earth and continue to escalate. No problems, mate. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
you shall have a queen - all shall love me and despair! Even without the ring you have my vote. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
For example, suppose you lived in the first century AD and someone came up and prophesied to you, whose pocket contained copper, gold or silver coins for sustenance, that some day those copper, gold and silver coins would be replaced with marks and numbers and that without the marks and numbers you would have no sustenance. Actually, marks and numbers as a way of defining wealth predate coins by many thousands of years and continued to be used even during the growth of coinage. The only thing coinage did was to allow an easier method of wealth transfer and greater portability. Using marks or tokens to account for wealth goes back about 10,000 years at a minimum, perhaps even longer. The vast majority of clay tablets that have be found are simply accounting records, who sold how many sheep, how many cows are in each village.
Here's one link to a short summary of the development of accounting. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Your position has no integrity. You refuse to even recognize the unique birthing event of Genesis 38 which the Zarahites adopted to be their emblem (Red Hand). Once again WILLOWTREE, here is Genesis 38:
27: And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb. 28: And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first, 29: And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez. 30: And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah. Please show where this mentions a Red Hand of Zarah. You keep saying people have no integrity yet you seem very reluctant to stop making unfounded assertions when they are shown to be totally wrong. This has been pointed out to you numorous times and you continue to make the unfounded assertion that there is any such thing as a Red Hand of Zarah. Unless you can show where the red hand of zarah is mentioned in Genesis 38 you need to retract your assertion. Isn't that called false witness? Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
quote: to which Mangy Tiger reasonably responds.
Please explain this - what does it mean ? What is a working numeral for a computer ? and jar jovially replies: Well, a Unix computer will not run without 600 and the owner can't do anthing without at least 060 and everybody else needs at least 006 to do anything so chmod 666 is handy if you ever want to do anything but chmod 777 is definitely the mark of the beast. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Please show where the prophecy of the Red Hand of Zarah is in Genesis 38:
Since it might be in one of the sections that I did not quote, and to make sure that I am not quote mining, here is the complete text of Genesis 38:
1: And it came to pass at that time, that Judah went down from his brethren, and turned in to a certain Adullamite, whose name was Hirah. 2: And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name was Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her. 3: And she conceived, and bare a son; and he called his name Er. 4: And she conceived again, and bare a son; and she called his name Onan. 5: And she yet again conceived, and bare a son; and called his name Shelah: and he was at Chezib, when she bare him. 6: And Judah took a wife for Er his firstborn, whose name was Tamar. 7: And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the LORD; and the LORD slew him. 8: And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. 9: And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. 10: And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also. 11: Then said Judah to Tamar his daughter in law, Remain a widow at thy father's house, till Shelah my son be grown: for he said, Lest peradventure he die also, as his brethren did. And Tamar went and dwelt in her father's house. 12: And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite. 13: And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep. 14: And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife. 15: When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face. 16: And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me? 17: And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it? 18: And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him. 19: And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood. 20: And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not. 21: Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place. 22: And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place. 23: And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her. 24: And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. 25: When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff. 26: And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more. 27: And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb. 28: And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first, 29: And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez. 30: And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah. If you cannot point out where the Red Hand of Zarah is shown will you at least be honest enough to admit that there is no such thing? This message has been edited by jar, 09-24-2004 09:53 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
WILLOWTREE whimpers: Classic example of a "debater" creating a post for the sake of not being humiliated/defeated. Acknowledge Message 366 or cry for the Admin intrusion which is what you are really doing. I'm not at all sure what it is you are trying to get me to say? In Message 366 you asserted that there is a Prophecy of a Red Hand of Zarah in Genesis 38. I cannot see it. In fact, what is mentioned is a red cord. No Red Hand. To make sure I was not only acknowledging you wrote post 366 but to be totally honest about it, I included the complete text of Genesis 38. All you have to do to support your assertion is to highlight the text that says there is a Red Hand of Zarah in the text I supplied. I tried to make this easier than adding up a column of numbers to help you salvage a little dignity. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024