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Author Topic:   Harm in Homosexuality?
Jon_the_Second
Member (Idle past 19841 days)
Posts: 33
From: London, UK
Joined: 11-07-2004


Message 233 of 309 (161501)
11-19-2004 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Silent H
11-19-2004 12:42 PM


"Looks like one for you, three for me"
I hadn't realised debate was about scoring points. But hey, if you need the validation...
The representation of the population may not be entirely accurate, but it is far less questionable than your previous post claimed.
The level of violence is far less imported to rape victims than the psychological damage of being totally dominated. The after effects include eating disorders, self harm, suicidal tendencies and high risk sexual behaviour, particularly in child rape victims. I am not going to post sources for this, I am too busy. Just have a look on journal sites and you'll find them.
In fact, the less violent rapes are often the MOST damaging - because of the after effects of self blame and self hate, as well as that non-violent rape are often committed by those to close to the victim, which leads to initmacy problems. Trust me, I know about this.
The legal questions were not me "blurring the issue" I thought you might have some thoughts where Tusko did not.#
A quick note though, with your counsellor idea we'd probably have even more child abusers evading prosecution than we already do. If the prosecution had to prove a lack of consent, not just that the act occurred, I don't think they'd convict very many people at all.
It's bad enough as it is.
I am also deeply suspicious as to whether ANY young child can engage in consensual sex without being coerced. Afterall, most of them don't even know what it is.
And no, men in the UK are not ashamed of having sex before 16. All the people I know who have done so are not ashamed about it, most are quite proud.
Women is perhaps a different matter.
I don't know of any case where a woman has been prosecuted for having consensual sex with an older child (like 14/15). The british justice system more or less ignores it.
I am saying PRECISELY that older boys DO boast about sex and are often very pleased with the events, but that doesn't change the fact that if the woman involved is much older she is abusing her position.
As for the bit about society, you misunderstood me. Of course societies views will affect people, I was saying that British society's views on under 16 boys having consensual sex is not going to cause any upset to them, because it is more or less condoned/applauded by their peers.
I stand by my concern about the figures for men engaging in under age consensual sex having increased psychological problems. I don't see this as consistent with society looking down on them, as I have stated. I cause, as you have said, is not clear. But the correlation is concerning.
I know monogomous gay couples, so it's clear that it isn't an inherent part of being gay. But maybe in British gay culture it IS acceptable / expected to be more promiscuous?
One more slightly off the point question. Would consensual child prostitution be acceptable to you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Silent H, posted 11-19-2004 12:42 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Silent H, posted 11-19-2004 5:22 PM Jon_the_Second has replied

Jon_the_Second
Member (Idle past 19841 days)
Posts: 33
From: London, UK
Joined: 11-07-2004


Message 235 of 309 (161508)
11-19-2004 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Tusko
11-19-2004 1:49 PM


Sex CAN be a deeply damaging thing, and not because of societies views. If someone is forced into sex or coerced into sex, the following feelings of self hate that they may get are not from society, but from themselves. Victims of abuse feel THEY have done something wrong for it to happen. So many rape victims spend their lives thinking it was somehow their fault, that "they asked for it".
With regards to children, I was meaning how do you tell which were raped and which gave consent, to prosecute rapists. Rape is a terribly damaging crime, and if you can't tell which children are raped and which are not, then you can't prevent it.
The link I gave you was an indication of the ability of parents to coerce their children - where the children on hunger strike ate when offered, even if they claimed the reason for the hunger strike was their own political view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Tusko, posted 11-19-2004 1:49 PM Tusko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Tusko, posted 11-20-2004 6:23 AM Jon_the_Second has not replied

Jon_the_Second
Member (Idle past 19841 days)
Posts: 33
From: London, UK
Joined: 11-07-2004


Message 236 of 309 (161526)
11-19-2004 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Silent H
11-19-2004 12:42 PM


The paper that I linked has been cited by several others. It is interesting to read them too.
Have a look at The British Journal of Psychiatry | Cambridge Core
Again, "consensual" sex is a predictor of self harm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Silent H, posted 11-19-2004 12:42 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Silent H, posted 11-19-2004 7:02 PM Jon_the_Second has not replied

Jon_the_Second
Member (Idle past 19841 days)
Posts: 33
From: London, UK
Joined: 11-07-2004


Message 238 of 309 (161569)
11-19-2004 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Silent H
11-19-2004 5:22 PM


quote:
If you are suggesting that for a singular instance of rape with same duration, a person (or child) will be more taumatized by the acts commited if they were done by coercion or drugging than by overt and/or extreme violent acts, that is pretty counterfactual.
Actually I have been reading a lot of studies today, and it is strongly suggested that non-violent rape is worse, psychologically speaking, because of the guilt and self blame that victims attach, whereas with violent attacks there is to some degree of the rapist HAVING to force the victim. As you said you won't be on for a while, I won't bother hunting back through my history to find it.
In my experience the self hate/self harm aspect for victims is often NOT related to how society views them or treats, but to the feeling of weakness and complicity to what happened to them.
I don't subscribe to the historical christian position of evil-sex. I do, however, have serious concerns about younger children being preyed upon by older children/adults to satisfy their own desires.
As you mentioned, the dutch laws seemed to be reasonable (though they are under going an overhaul) where the age difference between partners is considered - reflecting the reality that in modern society age (up to a point) does come with increased authority.
What struck me as odd about the original study I posted is that even though British society consider teenage boys engaging in sex with older women to be either not serious (from adults, and especially the legal system) or even positive (from their peers) they still had a higher incidence of psychological problems. Makes you wonder.
Child prostitution would not be morally accpetable to me (I'm not sure any prostitution really is - even porn films, when you see interviews with the stars, who are for the most part seemingly desperate to find love and confused between love and sex) because I don't think a child can make that kind of decision. Can a baby give consent? A toddler? Where do you draw the line?
As for a study into prostitution, if I come across one in my exploration, I will let you know!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Silent H, posted 11-19-2004 5:22 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Silent H, posted 11-19-2004 7:25 PM Jon_the_Second has not replied

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