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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 159 of 219 (164692)
12-02-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by dpardo
12-02-2004 1:21 PM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
Are you really asking me to show you where Jesus preaches the gospel message to more than one person?
Don't confuse Paul's Gospel with the Good News that Jesus preached.

Jesus preached that the Kingdom of God is at hand, repent.

Mark 1 (Complete Jewish Bible)
14 After Yochanan had been arrested, Yeshua came into the Galil proclaiming the Good News from God: 15 "The time has come, God's Kingdom is near! Turn to God from your sins and believe the Good News!"

Jesus didn't mention his death until after Peter's confession we spoke of earlier.

The Good News was not about his death and resurrection, that's Paul's Gospel.

Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, not the righteous or Gentiles. He told them the Kingdom of God was at hand and that they needed to repent to be a part of it.

Since he was only sent to the lost, this would not consitute an offer to the entire Jewish Community.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 1:21 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 4:48 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 160 of 219 (164697)
12-02-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by dpardo
12-02-2004 12:25 PM


Not Against Jesus
I'm not against the true teachings of Jesus or the Holy Spirit.

I am against dogma and the traditions of man.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 12:25 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 162 of 219 (164748)
12-02-2004 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by dpardo
12-02-2004 4:48 PM


Re: John 3:16
Romans 2:16
on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Romans 16:25
Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past,

2Timothy 2:8
Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel,

Not confused at all.

quote:
Acts 20:24
24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Paul testifies to the good news of God's grace. That is still not the Good News that Jesus preached to the Jews.

According to the NT the Law and the Prophets spoke of Jesus. Even Paul claimed that.

Show me!


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 4:48 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 6:43 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 164 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 6:59 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 165 of 219 (164764)
12-02-2004 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by dpardo
12-02-2004 6:43 PM


Re: John 3:16
quote:
Your theories are at odds with the scriptures.
As I said before, I'm not required to believe Paul or believe in Paul for eternal life.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by dpardo, posted 12-02-2004 6:43 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 177 of 219 (165094)
12-04-2004 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by dpardo
12-03-2004 1:48 PM


Spiritual Comfort Zone
quote:
If I am struggling with a particular scripture(s) at this point in time, and I say to my neighbor, "This is an unrealiable section", I may cause my neighbor to stumble.
I agree with brennakimi in Message 176

In Message 5 I agreed with ramoss that the offer should be within the Hebrew Bible since during the time of the supposed offer and rejection the NT didn't exist, so a Jew before or soon after the crucifixion would only have the Jewish documents to verify what they were being told.

In Message 56 to Phatboy, I stated clearly that I did not believe that Paul had the authority to make an offer to the Jews. I clearly stated I didn't want answers of opinion and belief. This was when you entered the debate.

That message should have given you an idea of how I feel about dogma and tradition and how I would handle this discussion.

Even in Message 118 when I made the statement about the book of John and gave evidence of why I considered it unreliable, I also said

quote:
Now if you trust the Book of John and believe that Jesus is God, so be it,

In Message 120 I tried to get you back on the track of the OP and hopefully away from the NT. Trust me, I have refrained from writing what I truly wanted to say because I felt the way the discussion was going it was going to tread on your comfort zone.

In Message 122 you opened the door concerning the book of John and Arach jumped on it. Maybe you forgot that this is in the "Accuracy and Inerrancy" forum.

The bottom line is that I started this discussion to help me discern if a legitimate offer was truly made to the Jews before the death of Jesus.

I don't go to Bible Studies anymore because I can't have the discussion necessary to answer my questions for fear of putting someone in spiritual crisis, which makes the study useless for me.

In the "Faith and Belief" forum I try not to make statements that might cause someone to stumble, but in this forum and in a thread I started, I shouldn't have to stifle my thoughts and opinions.

If I did there would be no discussion. So if this discussion is going beyond your spiritual comfort zone, then let us know and bow out of the discussion.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by dpardo, posted 12-03-2004 1:48 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by dpardo, posted 12-04-2004 10:26 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 186 of 219 (165235)
12-04-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by dpardo
12-04-2004 10:26 AM


Re: Spiritual Comfort Zone
Well it appears you missed the whole point of my Message 176.

It had nothing to do with what you answered or didn't answer. The point was that this thread, because of the forum it was in and statements made before you entered the discussion, should have impressed upon you that we were going to work with facts and not just faith and belief.

The fact that I don't feel that the Book of John is a reliable source, tells you that to use that book to prove your point, you would first have to have a discussion to convince me why it does hold authority.

Obviously that would be another thread, therefore, to continue in this discussion with me you would either need to change your tactics and provide verses from the OT as I asked, or start a new thread and try and convince me that the Book of John is a reliable source.

quote:
It is possible to discuss any questions and doubts without making statements like this:
As I said the Book of John is an unreliable source. It carries no weight.

It is also possible to discuss any questions and doubts without making statements that try to lay a guilt trip on the questioner, assume that the questioner is not spiritual, or warn the questioner about the path they seem to be following.

Forum Rule #3
Respect for others is the rule here. Argue the position, not the person.

If you wish to continue discussing what should and should not be said, then please start another thread.

I'd appreciate it if we could get back to the OP before we hit 300 posts.

As I stated before, I still have not been shown a clear offer made to the Jews before the death of Jesus.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by dpardo, posted 12-04-2004 10:26 AM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 187 of 219 (165236)
12-04-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by lfen
11-30-2004 2:53 AM


Re: Who Wrote the Bible--I liked this book
I just finished the book. Clears up a lot of my questions. My thoughts now are how this impacts the NT. Maybe we can start a discussion in the Book Forum after you reread.

Arach
I think you would like this book also, considering your thread on Deuteronomy. It is less than 300 pages long, a very quick read.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by lfen, posted 11-30-2004 2:53 AM lfen has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 191 of 219 (165317)
12-05-2004 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 189 by Amlodhi
12-04-2004 9:42 PM


Zealous for the Law
Amlodhi,

The offer in question is in the OP (Message 1)

quote:
Phatboy stated that the Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected.

Also Phatboy restates the assertion of an offer in Message 6.

Phatboy writes:

Again, I must emphasize: The Jews individually each had a chance to accept the Messiah, and, many did. As a nation, however, they were cut off after they rejected, as a nation, the Messiah.

dpardo is keeping with Phatboy's NT theme in trying to show me the specific offer made to the Jews.

Unfortunately, they have been unable to show me a clear presentation of "the offer" to the Jewish community or a clear rejection of "the offer" by the Jewish community.

I have found nothing in the NT before the death of Jesus to support such an offer.

As you have shown, James and the Jerusalem Church were still Jews with all the beliefs and rituals that implies.

James was the head of the Jerusalem Church:

A History of Christianity by Kenneth Scott Latourette 1953
...James the brother of Jesus became the head of the community....To their neighbours these early followers of Jesus, for they did not yet bear the distinctive designation of Christian, must have appeared another sect of Judaism, predominantly Galilean in membership, distinguished from other Jews by their belief that Jesus was the Messiah and by their expectation of the early return of their Lord. Their leader, James, appears to have been especially conservative in his loyalty to Jewish customs. They continued to use the temple as a place of worship and observed the Jewish law, including its ceremonies, circumcision, and the dietary regulations. Even some of the Pharisees joined them.

History of the Church by Eusebius
But Hegesippus, who lived immediately after the apostles, gives the most accurate account in the fifth book of his Memoirs. He writes as follows: "James, the brother of the Lord, succeeded to the government of the Church in conjunction with the apostles. He has been called the Just by all from the time of our Saviour to the present day; for there were many that bore the name of James. He was holy from his mother's womb; and he drank no wine nor strong drink, nor did he eat flesh. No razor came upon his head; he did not anoint himself with oil, and he did not use the bath. He alone was permitted to enter into the holy place; for he wore not woolen but linen garments. And he was in the habit of entering alone into the temple, and was frequently found upon his knees begging forgiveness for the people, so that his knees became hard like those of a camel, in consequence of his constantly bending them in his worship of God, and asking forgiveness for the people.

I don't think the Jews would have been open minded enough to let someone into the holy place who wasn't following the prescribed Jewish laws. Do you?

So I'm still waiting for someone to show me that God told the Jews they had to believe in the messiah or He would disown them.

I don't think they can.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Amlodhi, posted 12-04-2004 9:42 PM Amlodhi has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 12-05-2004 2:47 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 194 by Amlodhi, posted 12-05-2004 4:49 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 193 of 219 (165415)
12-05-2004 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by jar
12-05-2004 2:47 PM


Re: The creation of Christianity.
quote:
Does the initial question in this thread actually revolve around the creation of Christianity
In the long run it probably does, in the sense that the premise that an offer was given to the Jews and they rejected it, probably developed with or after Paul, as opposed to the original disciples.

This thread is to determine whether any offer was truly and clearly made to the Jewish Community before the death of Jesus.

Someone else may wish to start a thread concerning how and when this "offer" tradition started after his death, but this thread doesn't need to go that direction.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by jar, posted 12-05-2004 2:47 PM jar has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 195 of 219 (165502)
12-05-2004 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Amlodhi
12-05-2004 4:49 PM


Re: Zealous for the Law
quote:
IOW:

If the apostles didn't understand then the Jews (in general) could not have been given the same offer as Paul was relaying to the Gentiles.

If the apostles did understand, then their continued practice of temple Judaism was the correct course and Paul was mistaken.


Sorry I misunderstood, but I like the way you explained it. You gave me a clearer thought on the concept.

So the question we need answered right now is:
Were the apostles being excluded from understanding the messianic concepts that were supposedly given to Paul later?

Even if it doesn't get answered on this forum, you gave me a clearer idea of what I need to research.

Thanks


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Amlodhi, posted 12-05-2004 4:49 PM Amlodhi has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 197 of 219 (165628)
12-06-2004 11:02 AM


What Did the Apostles Know
After reading Amlodhi’s Message 194 I did a cursory read through of the synoptics and I found the following concerning what the apostles possibly knew.

BEFORE THE CRUCIFIXION:

Peter’s Confession that Jesus is the Messiah
(Mark 8:27-29, Matthew 16:13-16, Luke 9:18-20)
Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

Jesus Taught of his Suffering
(Mark 8:31-9:1, Matthew 16:21-28, Luke 9:22-27)
Jesus began to teach them how the Son of Man must suffer, but he didn’t say they must be silent or that they don’t understand.

Transfiguration
(Mark 9:2-8, Matthew 17:1-13, Luke 9:28-36)
Peter, James, and John saw Moses and Elijah and Jesus told them not to tell anyone what they had seen.

Jesus Again Teaches he must suffer
(Mark 9:30-32, Matthew 17:22-23, Luke 9:44-45)
Mark - Disciples did not understand
Matthew – Disciples were filled with grief.
Luke – Betrayed – Disciples did not grasp it.
In all they were afraid to ask for explanation!

AFTER THE RESURRECTION:

Mark – Nothing
Matthew – 28:16-20 (Baptize and teach the nations to obey everything Jesus commanded his disciples)
Luke – 24:45-49 (He opened their minds so they could understand the scriptures. He told them this was written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.)

Next I looked through Acts when the apostles were supposed to receive the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 1 after the resurrection and Jesus was teaching the apostles, the apostles asked Jesus directly: “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?” and Jesus answered “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority...” Doesn’t sound like Israel was kicked out of the running yet.

In Acts 2 they receive the Holy Spirit and Peter addresses the crowd and quotes Joel 2:28-32 which ended with “And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” In Joel the word LORD is in all caps denoting the name of God. The same for his quote according to a Psalm of David a few verses later. “I saw the LORD always before me...” (16) and “The LORD said to my Lord:...” (110)
So when Peter says “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.” The people ask what they should do?

Needless to say this would be the perfect time to spill the beans!

Peter replies “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

In Acts 3 Peter speaks to others saying: “Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of the refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. He must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything...”

These instructions do not say that one must believe that Jesus is the messiah. The message is still repent, which is what Jesus taught. Isn’t the time of the refreshing the Kingdom of God?

Now Peter also quotes Moses: “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.”

Unfortunately since Jesus told the apostles to be silent about who he was, he wasn’t presented to the Jewish people as a prophet to heed.

The prayer in Acts 4:24-30 even shows the people prayed to God and that the death of Jesus was decided beforehand by God.

Tentative Conclusion: After they received the Holy Spirit, the apostles did, according to the author, reveal that Jesus was the messiah after his death, they did teach that the prophets spoke of Jesus and what he was to endure, they did not appear confused as to the message they were supposed to spread, and the apostles still preached the message of repent and be baptized. They also continued their practice of temple Judaism.

What I didn’t see was the requirement to believe that Jesus was the Son of God (in the sense of being part deity) or to give up Judaism.

I did not see an "offer" that would disown the Jewish people because everyone or their leaders did not repent or did not believe that Jesus was the messiah.

This message has been edited by purpledawn, 12-06-2004 11:04 AM


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by Amlodhi, posted 12-06-2004 5:49 PM purpledawn has responded
 Message 215 by purpledawn, posted 12-13-2004 12:51 PM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 200 of 219 (166133)
12-08-2004 5:05 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by Amlodhi
12-06-2004 5:49 PM


Re: What Did the Apostles Know
Thank you,

Now I need to write it down somewhere so I don't forget.

quote:
That, IMO, is the only "offer" the Jews ever knew. The "offer" expounded by the Pauline Christians is an extrapolation, a "spinoff", which uses concepts and terminology that have been effectively divorced from their original intent and meaning.
I agree, now we'll see if anyone refutes this position.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Amlodhi, posted 12-06-2004 5:49 PM Amlodhi has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1800 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 215 of 219 (167716)
12-13-2004 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by purpledawn
12-06-2004 11:02 AM


No Ultimatum Given to the Jews!
With less than 100 posts left, I still have not been shown an "offer" that would disown the Jewish people because everyone or their leaders did not repent and/or did not believe that Jesus was the messiah.

As shown in Message 197 I found no evidence that even those who did repent, changed from the normal Jewish practices. The fact that around 80-90AD the Jews had to add the 12th petition to discern who were Nazarenes, shows they were not obvious by their worship practices.

Tentative Conclusion: After they received the Holy Spirit, the apostles did, according to the author, reveal that Jesus was the messiah after his death, they did teach that the prophets spoke of Jesus and what he was to endure, they did not appear confused as to the message they were supposed to spread, and the apostles still preached the message of repent and be baptized. They also continued their practice of temple Judaism.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by purpledawn, posted 12-06-2004 11:02 AM purpledawn has not yet responded

  
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