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Author Topic:   Jews Rejected God's Offer
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 219 (162098)
11-21-2004 4:45 PM


In the thread History Buffs, Come Help Me With Jesus Phatboy stated that the Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected.

I have heard this phrase or variations of it before, but no one has been able to tell me clearly what the offer was or where it is written. No one has been able to show me where any clear option was presented to the Jewish Community by God and where the Jewish Community clearly rejected an offer from God.

Show me where God made a clear offer to the Jewish Community, as a whole, and what that specific offer was!

Show me where the Jewish Community, as a whole, clearly rejected a specific offer from God.

NOTE to Admin: I would like this in the Accuracy and Inerrancy forum if possible.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by ramoss, posted 11-21-2004 6:32 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 3 of 219 (162102)
11-21-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
11-21-2004 5:08 PM


Thanks
Excellent!

Thanks


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 219 (162112)
11-21-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ramoss
11-21-2004 6:32 PM


I would agree since during the time of the supposed offer and rejection the NT didn't exist, so a Jew before or soon after the crucifixion would only have the Jewish documents to verify what they were being told.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-21-2004 10:47 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 18 of 219 (162268)
11-22-2004 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Thugpreacha
11-21-2004 10:47 PM


Re: A matter of opinion and belief
quote:
We could examine the prophecies concerning the Messiah, but that would involve a new thread.
No it wouldn't. I asked to be shown. So go for it.

NOTE: If you do present prophecy, please present one at a time in separate posts and put the passage number in the title. This will keep it straight when people are discussing specific prophecies. I also ask that if you or anyone else discussing a prophecy decides to remove themselves from the debate, please let us know.

quote:
From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.
So Paul presented the offer to the Jews? Show me what Paul showed them.

Isaiah 6:9-10 Tanach
9 And He said: 'Go, and tell this people: hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they, seeing with their eyes, and hearing with their ears, and understanding with their heart, return, and be healed.'

Isaiah 6:9-10 Complete Jewish Bible
..."Yes, you hear, but you don't understand. You certainly see, but you don't get the point!"

Paul's quote is a bit different than Isaiah itself.

Isaiah 10 is saying God caused their (Jews) hearts to be calloused, stopped up their ears, and shut their eyes so they couldn't repent.

Acts 28:28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

When did God give Paul this revelation? When did God ordain Paul to speak for him?

quote:
Rom 11:7-21
What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
Show me what Israel was seeking and did not obtain. Who are the elect and what did they obtain?

Isaiah 29:10 Tanach
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes; the prophets, and your heads, the seers, hath He covered.

Isaiah 29:10 NIV
The Lord has brought over you a deep sleep: He has sealed your eyes (the prophets); he has covered your heads (the seers).

Again Paul's quote not really the same as Isaiah.

Matthew 15:24
He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Exactly! So since Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, the righteous were already prepared for the Kingdom of God, judgment day, and weren't required to "believe in Jesus" since he wasn't there for them.

Show me where God says that the Messiah was only going to be sent to the lost of Israel?

quote:
Again, I must emphasize: The Jews individually each had a chance to accept the Messiah, and, many did. As a nation, however, they were cut off after they rejected, as a nation, the Messiah.
Please explain to me what "accepting the Messiah" means within the timeframe of Jesus, not present day.

Then show me where God explains to the Jewish people, before the death of Jesus, that if they individually or as a "group" do not accept the Messiah that God will cast them aside.

Paul supposedly presented his case from the Tanach, you should be able to do the same.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-21-2004 10:47 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-22-2004 10:34 AM purpledawn has responded
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 26 of 219 (162394)
11-22-2004 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Thugpreacha
11-22-2004 10:34 AM


Righteousness
quote:
Rom 11:7-10
What was it that Israel strove for which she did not obtain? Paul has already answered this in Rom 9:32 and 10:3. Israel strove for righteousness. But instead of submitting to the righteousness of God, she sought to establish her own.

Romans 9:31-32
but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works....

Unfortunately, all you are giving me is Paul's opinion and belief. What backs up Paul's opinion besides Paul.

Show me that the Jews had not attained a law of righteousness.

Exodus 33:19
...I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Torah
19And He answered, I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim before you the name Lord, (Lit. My face will go and I will.)and the grace that I grant and the compassion that I show. (Lit. My face will go and I will.)

And to this Paul said:

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Then he quotes what God told Moses to say to Pharoh:

Exodus 9:16
But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

God also told Moses:

10:1-2
Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miracuous signs of mine among them that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord."

And Paul concludes:

Romans 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden....

So did the Jews or any of us truly have a choice?

You still haven't shown me what scripture from the OT Paul used to support his Gospel.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-22-2004 10:34 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 31 of 219 (162431)
11-22-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Thugpreacha
11-22-2004 4:23 PM


Re: Righteousness
You made the statement that the Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected, but you are unable to tell me what the specific option was and when specifically it was rejected by the Jews.

Acts 26:22
...I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen--that the Christ would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to his own people and to the Gentiles."

And you provided:

Acts 28:23-28
They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. From morning till evening he explained and declared to them the kingdom of God and tried to convince them about Jesus from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets. Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.

So when a Christian claims that the Jews rejected an offer from God, that's a mouthful. There should be something in the OT that shows that an offer was to be made either by God or the messiah.

Paul was not the messiah.
Paul did not claim to speak for God.
Paul was not a disciple of Jesus.
Paul did not know Jesus.

But his gospel is accepted over that of Jesus?

I have found nothing in the OT or the teachings of Jesus to backup Paul's claims that the Jews were given an ultimatum by God or the messiah or that if they rejected it, the offer would then be given to the Gentiles. What was the offer?

I've already shown you that some of Paul's quotes from the OT carry a different meaning than what was stated in the OT.

Why do you need scholars? Paul himself says he says no more than Moses and the prophets. So the support should be there.

No one has shown me that support yet.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-22-2004 4:23 PM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by YesthisisTrue, posted 11-23-2004 5:11 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 43 of 219 (162553)
11-23-2004 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by YesthisisTrue
11-23-2004 5:11 AM


Re: Righteousness
Don't just say it, show where Paul claimed to speak for God.

Show where Paul says that all he is saying is from God.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by YesthisisTrue, posted 11-23-2004 5:11 AM YesthisisTrue has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 11:00 AM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 219 (162586)
11-23-2004 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by HowManyColors
11-23-2004 8:04 AM


quote:
There are many Biblical accounts of God speaking audibly to Paul, as to a prophet.
Don't just say it, show me, oh YeOfManyNames.

List the verses.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by HowManyColors, posted 11-23-2004 8:04 AM HowManyColors has not yet responded

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 56 of 219 (162666)
11-23-2004 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Thugpreacha
11-23-2004 11:00 AM


Re: Righteousness
quote:
First, you put the burden of proof on us to prove that the Bible is inspired.
I did not ask you to prove that the Bible is inspired. Writings usually are inspired whether they are religious or otherwise. Inspiration is not the issue.

If it helps any, I have over 40 years of Christianity under my belt, which includes some Church Administration and intense Bible study.

While studying the covenants, I found that the covenants that God made with the Jews DO NOT have an end date or condition according to the OT.

So when you make a statement that says the Jews rejected God's offer and that the same offer was given to the Gentiles, my question is what offer? What was the offer?

If Paul was inspired to create a religion for the Gentiles, great, I have no problem with that. It isn't a new idea. In Jewish History, even before Jesus was born, Jewish reformist were trying to get Judaism to lighten up so they would mesh better with the Greeks.

I do have a problem with the claim that the Jews rejected God's offer, that their covenant with God is over, or that they now must change and accept another way to God. It is not in the Hebrew Bible nor is it presented by Jesus.

I do expect Christians to backup their dogma and tradition with Biblical support, especially when it casts asperions on another culture or religion.

I don't believe Paul had the authority to make an offer to the Jews, so who did? Where? When?

Just because a person doesn't support all the dogma and tradition associated with Christianity doesn't mean that person is an atheist.

I had this thread put in the accuracy and inerrancy because I want Biblical backup that shows God made an offer and the Jews rejected it.

I don't want answers of opinion and belief.
I don't want Paul's opinions and belief, unless you can show me that he was speaking words that God told him to say.

That's why I said to you that if you had more than just opinion and belief we could continue the discussion in this thread.

Unless I missed the fine print, I am not required to believe in Paul or his writings for eternal life.

So if you wish to continue this discussion, please show me where the Jews rejected an authentic offer from God.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-23-2004 11:00 AM Thugpreacha has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 60 of 219 (162693)
11-23-2004 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by dpardo
11-23-2004 1:49 PM


Re: Righteousness
Excellent, but now I'm afraid you are going to get annoyed with me again.

Acts 9:15
15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he [Paul] is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

There is a difference between speaking of God and speaking for God.

Who is speaking; God or Jesus? The word Lord doesn't really specify.
In Acts 9:17 we have...

So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."

To me this would indicate that Jesus was speaking to Ananias, not God. So Jesus gave Paul the authority to bring the name of Jesus before the Gentiles etc.

Not quite the same as speaking for God and declaring Judaism obsolete.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by dpardo, posted 11-23-2004 1:49 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 62 of 219 (162702)
11-23-2004 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dpardo
11-23-2004 3:39 PM


Holy Ghost
quote:
What about the Holy Ghost who sent him?
Interesting question.

Anything I have read presents the Holy Ghost/Spirit roughly as a helper or a gift from God to be received after belief in Jesus.

Jesus warns against speaking against the Holy Spirit in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but I haven't read anything that requires belief in the Holy Spirit for eternal life.

Acts 13
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Even the scripture you shared speaks of the belief in Jesus and not the Holy Spirit.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by dpardo, posted 11-23-2004 3:39 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 80 of 219 (162967)
11-24-2004 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by dpardo
11-23-2004 8:13 PM


Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
Jeremiah 31:31 I know it well.

What is the purpose of a prophesy beyond the life of the listener?

The book of Jeremiah covers the disciplinarian acts of God concerning Israel and Judah. Around chapter 29 God has Jeremiah talk about bringing them back from captivity which continues through chapter 30 and 31.

Jeremiah 30:3
The days are coming, delcares the Lord, 'when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,' says the Lord.

Jeremiah 30:8
"In that day,' delcares the Lord Almighty, 'I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them....

Jeremiah 31:1
"At that time," declares the Lord, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."

Jeremiah 31:23
This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: "When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words:...

Jeremiah 31:27
"The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will plant the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the offspring of men and of animals.

Jeremiah 31:29-30
"In those days people will no longer say, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge.' Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; ...

Jeremiah 31:31
The time is coming, "declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah....

Jeremiah 31:38
"The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when this city will be rebuilt for me....

Given that the theme of the Book of Jeremiah dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem etc., sending the Jews into exile, and their future return; the passages you shared are realistically speaking of that timeframe when the Jews returned to their promised land. If the prophecy was for 600 years in the future, it served no purpose for the people in exile.

Then they have this assurance from God which follows the verses you shared:

Jeremiah 31:36-37
"Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me."

The Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:33-34
"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Needless to say, there is still a lot of teaching going on!

What does this covenant state that the Jews have to do as their part of the covenant?

What does it say they have to do for God to forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more?

I see no conditions.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by dpardo, posted 11-23-2004 8:13 PM dpardo has responded

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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 87 of 219 (163028)
11-24-2004 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by dpardo
11-24-2004 2:57 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
A prophet is basically a spokesman for God, a person chosen by God to speak to people on God's behalf and convey a message or teaching.

In the example you gave, God didn't tell Abraham to pass on the information to anyone else. The purpose is between God and Abraham.

Jeremiah on the other hand was told to deliver information to the House of Israel and Judah.

We can see the purpose of Jeremiah before 31:31.

God gave warnings of destruction. Pretty much change or be destroyed.
Then the warning of imminent destruction. All of which are within the lifetime of the audience.

Then God has Jeremiah speak of restoration and forgiveness. Logically these are also within the lifetime of the audience.

It serves no purpose beyond the lifetime of the audience.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by dpardo, posted 11-24-2004 2:57 PM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by dpardo, posted 11-24-2004 8:11 PM purpledawn has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 91 of 219 (163143)
11-25-2004 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by dpardo
11-24-2004 8:11 PM


Re: Good Ole Jeremiah 31:31
You would need to tell me which ones you consider to be Messianic Prophecies.


A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1714 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 96 of 219 (163242)
11-25-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by dpardo
11-25-2004 1:10 PM


Genesis 14:14
quote:
Your statement of after-the-fact-writing of Genesis is, in fact, not a fact.

Genesis 14:14 (NIV)
When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he led out his trained men, born in his house, three hundred and eighteen, and went in pursuit as far as Dan.

Judges 18
27 Then they took what Micah had made and the priest who had belonged to him, and came to Laish, to a people quiet and secure, and struck them with the edge of the sword; and they burned the city with fire.

28 And there was no one to deliver them, because it was far from Sidon and they had no dealings with anyone, and it was in the valley which is near Beth-rehob. And they rebuilt the city and lived in it.

29 They called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father who was born in Israel; however, the name of the city formerly was Laish.

This section from Judges supposedly takes place after the death of Samson. More than 200 years after Moses.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by dpardo, posted 11-25-2004 1:10 PM dpardo has responded

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