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Author | Topic: Jews Rejected God's Offer | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
In the thread History Buffs, Come Help Me With Jesus Phatboy stated that the Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected.
I have heard this phrase or variations of it before, but no one has been able to tell me clearly what the offer was or where it is written. No one has been able to show me where any clear option was presented to the Jewish Community by God and where the Jewish Community clearly rejected an offer from God. Show me where God made a clear offer to the Jewish Community, as a whole, and what that specific offer was! Show me where the Jewish Community, as a whole, clearly rejected a specific offer from God. NOTE to Admin: I would like this in the Accuracy and Inerrancy forum if possible. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Excellent!
Thanks
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I would agree since during the time of the supposed offer and rejection the NT didn't exist, so a Jew before or soon after the crucifixion would only have the Jewish documents to verify what they were being told.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No it wouldn't. I asked to be shown. So go for it. NOTE: If you do present prophecy, please present one at a time in separate posts and put the passage number in the title. This will keep it straight when people are discussing specific prophecies. I also ask that if you or anyone else discussing a prophecy decides to remove themselves from the debate, please let us know. quote:So Paul presented the offer to the Jews? Show me what Paul showed them.
Paul's quote is a bit different than Isaiah itself. Isaiah 10 is saying God caused their (Jews) hearts to be calloused, stopped up their ears, and shut their eyes so they couldn't repent.
When did God give Paul this revelation? When did God ordain Paul to speak for him? quote:Show me what Israel was seeking and did not obtain. Who are the elect and what did they obtain?
Again Paul's quote not really the same as Isaiah.
Exactly! So since Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel, the righteous were already prepared for the Kingdom of God, judgment day, and weren't required to "believe in Jesus" since he wasn't there for them. Show me where God says that the Messiah was only going to be sent to the lost of Israel? quote:Please explain to me what "accepting the Messiah" means within the timeframe of Jesus, not present day. Then show me where God explains to the Jewish people, before the death of Jesus, that if they individually or as a "group" do not accept the Messiah that God will cast them aside. Paul supposedly presented his case from the Tanach, you should be able to do the same. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:
Unfortunately, all you are giving me is Paul's opinion and belief. What backs up Paul's opinion besides Paul. Show me that the Jews had not attained a law of righteousness.
And to this Paul said:
Then he quotes what God told Moses to say to Pharoh:
God also told Moses:
And Paul concludes:
So did the Jews or any of us truly have a choice? You still haven't shown me what scripture from the OT Paul used to support his Gospel. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
You made the statement that the Gentiles were given the same option that the Jews rejected, but you are unable to tell me what the specific option was and when specifically it was rejected by the Jews.
And you provided:
So when a Christian claims that the Jews rejected an offer from God, that's a mouthful. There should be something in the OT that shows that an offer was to be made either by God or the messiah. Paul was not the messiah. But his gospel is accepted over that of Jesus? I have found nothing in the OT or the teachings of Jesus to backup Paul's claims that the Jews were given an ultimatum by God or the messiah or that if they rejected it, the offer would then be given to the Gentiles. What was the offer? I've already shown you that some of Paul's quotes from the OT carry a different meaning than what was stated in the OT. Why do you need scholars? Paul himself says he says no more than Moses and the prophets. So the support should be there. No one has shown me that support yet. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Don't just say it, show where Paul claimed to speak for God.
Show where Paul says that all he is saying is from God. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Don't just say it, show me, oh YeOfManyNames. List the verses. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:I did not ask you to prove that the Bible is inspired. Writings usually are inspired whether they are religious or otherwise. Inspiration is not the issue. If it helps any, I have over 40 years of Christianity under my belt, which includes some Church Administration and intense Bible study. While studying the covenants, I found that the covenants that God made with the Jews DO NOT have an end date or condition according to the OT. So when you make a statement that says the Jews rejected God's offer and that the same offer was given to the Gentiles, my question is what offer? What was the offer? If Paul was inspired to create a religion for the Gentiles, great, I have no problem with that. It isn't a new idea. In Jewish History, even before Jesus was born, Jewish reformist were trying to get Judaism to lighten up so they would mesh better with the Greeks. I do have a problem with the claim that the Jews rejected God's offer, that their covenant with God is over, or that they now must change and accept another way to God. It is not in the Hebrew Bible nor is it presented by Jesus. I do expect Christians to backup their dogma and tradition with Biblical support, especially when it casts asperions on another culture or religion. I don't believe Paul had the authority to make an offer to the Jews, so who did? Where? When? Just because a person doesn't support all the dogma and tradition associated with Christianity doesn't mean that person is an atheist. I had this thread put in the accuracy and inerrancy because I want Biblical backup that shows God made an offer and the Jews rejected it. I don't want answers of opinion and belief. That's why I said to you that if you had more than just opinion and belief we could continue the discussion in this thread. Unless I missed the fine print, I am not required to believe in Paul or his writings for eternal life. So if you wish to continue this discussion, please show me where the Jews rejected an authentic offer from God. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Excellent, but now I'm afraid you are going to get annoyed with me again.
There is a difference between speaking of God and speaking for God. Who is speaking; God or Jesus? The word Lord doesn't really specify.
To me this would indicate that Jesus was speaking to Ananias, not God. So Jesus gave Paul the authority to bring the name of Jesus before the Gentiles etc. Not quite the same as speaking for God and declaring Judaism obsolete. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Interesting question. Anything I have read presents the Holy Ghost/Spirit roughly as a helper or a gift from God to be received after belief in Jesus. Jesus warns against speaking against the Holy Spirit in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, but I haven't read anything that requires belief in the Holy Spirit for eternal life.
Even the scripture you shared speaks of the belief in Jesus and not the Holy Spirit. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Jeremiah 31:31 I know it well.
What is the purpose of a prophesy beyond the life of the listener? The book of Jeremiah covers the disciplinarian acts of God concerning Israel and Judah. Around chapter 29 God has Jeremiah talk about bringing them back from captivity which continues through chapter 30 and 31.
Given that the theme of the Book of Jeremiah dealt with the destruction of Jerusalem etc., sending the Jews into exile, and their future return; the passages you shared are realistically speaking of that timeframe when the Jews returned to their promised land. If the prophecy was for 600 years in the future, it served no purpose for the people in exile. Then they have this assurance from God which follows the verses you shared:
The Covenant:
Needless to say, there is still a lot of teaching going on! What does this covenant state that the Jews have to do as their part of the covenant? What does it say they have to do for God to forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more? I see no conditions. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
A prophet is basically a spokesman for God, a person chosen by God to speak to people on God's behalf and convey a message or teaching.
In the example you gave, God didn't tell Abraham to pass on the information to anyone else. The purpose is between God and Abraham. Jeremiah on the other hand was told to deliver information to the House of Israel and Judah. We can see the purpose of Jeremiah before 31:31. God gave warnings of destruction. Pretty much change or be destroyed. Then God has Jeremiah speak of restoration and forgiveness. Logically these are also within the lifetime of the audience. It serves no purpose beyond the lifetime of the audience. A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
You would need to tell me which ones you consider to be Messianic Prophecies.
A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 2203 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:
This section from Judges supposedly takes place after the death of Samson. More than 200 years after Moses.
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