Conversion to atheism

As an atheist, I do not believe it is important to convert theists to my position. Indeed I loathe all attempts at conversion by anyone.While it is important for people to know the truth, spiritual truths and moral truths are definitely diverse and perhaps that is the only truth we need to know. People find purpose and spirituality in the same way they find everything else, individually.I think the most important task is for people to be able to live and communicate their personal beliefs as freely as possible, without crossing the boundary of trying to impose or actively convert others.A great example is a spiritual "fleamarket" they set up in a large square a few blocks from my house. There is every color of the spectrum as far as religion is concerned, including non-religion (secular humanism). No one is advancing at you with pamphlets saying how wrong you are. They have their tables and you sample from them at your leisure.When joined in debate on a subject then such underlying issues may come up and then it is fair game and a part of this may be trying to advance one's outlook. That is different than prosyletizing (secular or otherwise).I do not find many benefits of being an atheist. It is sort of neutral. Indeed I would admit some drawbacks in the form of not having some emotional supports that theists would have. I do believe there are benefits in being a theist or atheist outside of orgnaized religions. Organized theism makes one prey to a lot of users.It is rather intellectual honesty which I believe has benefits, and has led me to atheism... not the other way around. Part of my being intellectually honest is an admission that I do not have all the answers and future evidence may shift me into theism of some kind, even if I doubt such evidence will ever come. Another part is admitting that other people's spiritual (theistic) beliefs may be valid as they have different experiences than I do.Sharing info in a state of honesty is what is important. Converting others to one's current position is not of overriding importance.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Did you really mean "afterlife", as opposed to an "external objective purpose"? Theism certainly provides a context for the latter, but does not necessarily mean the former.Personally, I do not understand why those four questions are better answered by theism, especially if there is an afterlife. This life and what you mean in it seem more concretely answered in atheism. Don't speak for me... You are somebody (the only one who will be you). You are the result of a fascinating process which took place in a pretty amazing and diverse universe. When you die your body will remain as part of that interesting universe and may indeed fertilize more life.Unless you want me to speak for you... You are nobody but a cog in God's machine. You came from dirt and from dirt you will return. While you are given free will, it is only to choose to obey to being a cog. If you like your role and obey, when you die you get permanently placed in the machine. If you disobey, when you die you will be punished eternally. You know one would think that is true. But I have found as much prudishness and moralizing within atheism as I have from any theist. Its like many atheists feel like they have to prove that they can be "good" by sticking to theistically derived rules, which make little sense within atheism.I think whether a looser morality is a liability or a benefit is relative. My guess is you would find some of the greater moral strictures of Islam or Judaism to be needless and a liability. This is of course what others could feel about specific Xian moral restraints.It was only a small number of years ago that the Xian morality against miscegenation was removed from law and began to be removed from religious sentiment. Do you feel this loosening of morals was detrimental?

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I'm not going to debate your position on this (at least not here). The point I was trying to make was in a sense, reinforced by what you just said.I was saying you should not try and speak for what an atheist says about life. You ought to be listening instead. It came off as bizarre and the opposite of what i believe as an atheist.When I "spoke for you", I was intending it to not be what you believe. It was to generate an understanding that it is silly for me to say what your answer to questions about life are, just as it is silly for you to try the same.It is disengenuous.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

??? It appears the OP was asking about an atheist's perspective on trying to change people into being atheists, not a theist's stereotype of what an atheist must think.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

That is exactly what I was trying to say, but perhaps better worded. Indeed you worked in how reasoning fits into the strength of democracy. Nice post.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I don't agree for a few reasons.1) While specific theologies may go belly up (as histories show they do) there really are experiences people have which people feel are related to something bigger, or external to common existence. Whether this is some feeling due to chemicals within the brain is beside the point. People feel things and interpret them, and as long as people have "spiritual" experiences there will always be forms of theism.2) People are actually helped out physically by having something emotional to hang on to, and theism allows an additional bond. As long as people can point to this there will also be reasons for theism to exist... comfort and healing.3) This will seem overtly negative, but it is true: ignorance. Despite a wealth of information at everyone's finger tips pretty much everyone continues to trust in initial beliefs (trying to find whatever opinion to support it as if fact) instead of stopping and evaluating initial beliefs through an objective stance. I am not claiming that this is how all theists begin or stay theists, but it certainly is how many maintain some pretty contradictory positions. And to be fair, plenty of atheists do this as well.This message has been edited by holmes, 01-01-2005 05:06 AM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)