the book of job, and an unjust god

Arachnophilia Then the end justifies the means?on their own[/i],yet we find time and again that choices are altered by the intervention of god. If law does not apply to god then how can he become angry at those who see this as unjust?In the christian world what is the compensation for the loss of,say,ones complete family in a war?Do we not find is questionable that speculation such as this is made by people in relativly peaceful countries who do not have to experience the degradation and fear on a daily basis.
Imagine your position on this if armed strangers were to come in and force you to witness the death of each of your closest family by placing a .45 to their temple and pulling the trigger while your were seeing the horror in their eyes.Imagine it was your son or daughter?And then tell me the ends justify the means.Tell me that god was just.

Arachnophilia So,for instance,Clumbine,Jonestown,Crusades,cancer,Chernobyl,ethnic cleansing in numerous countries would be for whose greater good?Killing ones son that we might be forgiven is the work of sanity in your eyes?First, the likelihood of christ even existing is highly debateable{and a good seperate topic I will persue}and second how is the death of a single man somehow a balancing act to forgive anyone of any attrocity? I am sorry if I do not share in your enthusiasm but that amounts to walking with your eyes shut to the actual origin and purpose of the horrors. Forgiving of what? Sin? If you would lead a group would you flaunt the very law you impose?This is dictatorship.I am appalled that this is the position you would take{only my opinion remember}since this I feel is the reason that such attrocities as we witness in the world originate and continue through time. You did not answer the question my friend. Take a few days off to view some war footage of the beheadings of civilians and the death of children in a war zone.Better yet go witness firsthand and visualize in your mind your loved ones faces in each of those scenarios.Then tell me you would still support such as being for the greater good.Make sure you are wrapped in warm blankets in a warm house well fed and enjoying life.Tell me this is not hypocrisy.

Ifen The question concerns the availability of god to intervene to prevent attrocities.That the common idea that a god loves us all and yet allows for these to occur is answered by the taking the obvious to its limit which is to say that the reason it does not make sense is because the whole thing is the result of humans capable of these horrors and god simply not existing.A child dies in crossfire on the gaza strip.100,000 residents of Hiroshima are vaporized or die horribly alone and depressed by the carnage,their flesh sloughing from their body.These and all others are the result of human activities because there is no god to prevent such things from occuring.No moral compass exists except through the choice of the individual.Thus any person regardless of their beliefs or lack thereof is capable of choosing any path they are willing to take and cannot be stopped from doing so except through due vigilence by those potentially at risk.It matters not if you are christian or muslim buddhist or atheist all human actions are a result of choosing to follow a path that is open if one so decides.

dpardoAre you seriously implying here that you could find it in yourself to slaughter an infant?Please tell me this is not the position you are taking.

dpardoI do apologize as I did not mean to imply this as being something you would willingly do.However if you were commanded by someone who claimed as Samuel did that these were orders from god then what would you do?

dpardo Guess the Amelekites should not have shown mercy and slaughtered the whole lot eh? Pity that they should make such a mistake.

dpardo I do not think that is the case since they were attacking people who did not believe in their god. Perhaps they were under direction of their god to do so and were thereby justfied by your logic.They erred in not completely eliminating the entire people.They were,in that sense,merciful compared to the Israelites.Of course you will counter with the silly claim that the Israelites had the one true god. sigh

dpardo And of course in the Amelekites view the Israleites were led by satan and thus were guilty by association and as such the Amelikites were properly justified in their attack upon them.Such is the thought pattern of those who support genocide.The nazis also had such illusions of proper superiority based on "truth" only they were privy to.Upon such arrogance is found the root of the attrocities men commit.I watched a documentary the other night here concerning a muslim extremist who calimed that the slitting of the throats of people is assured to be painless according to the beliefs he attains to and is thus a "humane"{LOL *puke!*} means of dispatching enemies.
I mentioned this to my fellow workers and we agred that perhaps he should avail himself of the opportunity to test his assertion.It seems so easy for people to shut down their asssumed morals when it comes to those who do not share their view.Such people were mentioned by the WWI poet Wilfred Owen. A merry christmas to you and yours from an atheist who cares if people suffer in their situations in life.May you and the family have a great time and really share your time together fully.Talk at you later.

dpado Which rules do you suppose those to be and where do you find them?

dpardo And what of the ten commandments of Exodus 34.1Exodus - Chapter 34Exd 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon [these] tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.Exd 34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.Exd 34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.Exd 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.Exd 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.Exd 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,Exd 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear [the guilty]; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth [generation].Exd 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.Exd 34:9 And he said, If now I have found grace in thy sight, O Lord, let my Lord, I pray thee, go among us; for it [is] a stiffnecked people; and pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for thine inheritance.Exd 34:10 And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou [art] shall see the work of the LORD: for it [is] a terrible thing that I will do with thee.Exd 34:11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.Exd 34:12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:Exd 34:13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:Exd 34:14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name [is] Jealous, [is] a jealous God:Exd 34:15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and [one] call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;Exd 34:16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.Exd 34:17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.Exd 34:18 The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.Exd 34:19 All that openeth the matrix [is] mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, [whether] ox or sheep, [that is male].Exd 34:20 But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem [him] not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.Exd 34:21 Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.Exd 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.Exd 34:23 Thrice in the year shall all your men children appear before the Lord GOD, the God of Israel.Exd 34:24 For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.Exd 34:25 Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.Exd 34:26 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.Exd 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.Exd 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.I suppose you follow these ten commandments?

dpardo Perhaps not. It does however go towards the validity of applying bible based moral codes to the conduct of one within one's society.
It is especially telling that the ten commandments of 34:1 are said by god to moses of being faithful renditions of the first. Why would you fail to follow the second set of commandments{I believe there are actually more than ten}unless you would consider it a good thing to ignore such from your perspective?Why is it that the two sets of commandments differ if they are supposed to be the same according to the bible?If you wish we could start a thread to explore this but perhaps we should wait till after christmas to allow us to have free time to discuss this?

---

A centipede was happy quite, until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?'
This raised his doubts to such a pitch
He fell distracted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.

Arachnophilia I could speculate that you are afforded comfort in your beliefs and that comfort is the purpose.That it is inconsistent with the reality of the horrors that men are capable of does not diminish its value as a psychological defense in many people.I was going to continue in a conversation concerning horrors that convinced me of otherwise, but I do not wish to dredge up these images for you this close to christmas day. I will perhaps reiterate at a later time.

Arachnophilia Were that such was the case.For me,personally,it is more disheartening to watch the momentum of nations guided by religious principles clashing with one another,each convinced of the validity of their god and the rightousness of their actions.To know that the death of innocents cannot be justified through the caring of a god or a reward in heaven makes the loss all the more poignant and gut-wrenching. No one wins in war as a general rule.Pun intended.