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Author Topic:   the book of job, and an unjust god
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 181 (170171)
12-20-2004 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by sidelined
12-18-2004 9:18 AM


Sidelined writes:
If law does not apply to god then how can he become angry at those who see this as unjust?In the christian world what is the compensation for the loss of,say,ones complete family in a war?Do we not find is questionable that speculation such as this is made by people in relativly peaceful countries who do not have to experience the degradation and fear on a daily basis.
Imagine your position on this if armed strangers were to come in and force you to witness the death of each of your closest family by placing a .45 to their temple and pulling the trigger while your were seeing the horror in their eyes.Imagine it was your son or daughter?
And then tell me the ends justify the means.Tell me that god was just.
There are many, many atrocities that happen daily to both believers and non-believers.
One thing that has not been mentioned, and I believe to be of paramount importance, is that physical death is not the end.
Indeed, if physical death is the ultimate destination of everyone, Christians' (and others) faith is in vain.
Resurrection, however, is the glorious hope of the justified and the secret dread of the wicked.
The one into reward, the other into everlasting punishment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by sidelined, posted 12-18-2004 9:18 AM sidelined has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 181 (170175)
12-20-2004 4:03 PM


Arachnophilia,
I apologize for not responding right away.
I am currently going through the Book of Job again to address your points.

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 181 (170426)
12-21-2004 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by berberry
12-20-2004 8:28 PM


Berberry writes:
Remember, the passage I cited states explicitly that God ordered the slaughter of the Amalekites.
What is your point concerning the slaughter of the Amalekites?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by berberry, posted 12-20-2004 8:28 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:06 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 181 (170447)
12-21-2004 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by berberry
12-18-2004 12:36 PM


Berberry writes:
If one wants to make the case that God is unjust, one has only to read 1 Samuel 15. God orders Israel to attack and utterly destroy an entire race of people, going out of his way to order that children and even suckling infants be killed. It's passages like this that make me wonder just why it is that we're supposed to be afraid of Satan. If this is really God then he's a lot like Hitler.
The account of what the "innocent" Amalekites did:
Deuteronomy 25:17-19:
17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way, when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee, even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and weary; and he feared not God.
19 Therefore it shall be, when the LORD thy God hath given thee rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven; thou shalt not forget it.
The Amalekites attacked an unarmed Israel as they fled out of Egypt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by berberry, posted 12-18-2004 12:36 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 1:59 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 38 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:08 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 181 (170449)
12-21-2004 2:00 PM


God gave Israel the Land of Canaan because the Canaanites were wicked:
Leviticus 18:21-30:
21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.

26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled; )
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 181 (170451)
12-21-2004 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dan Carroll
12-21-2004 1:59 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
Even the suckling infants?
How noble of you that you are concerned for the innocent suckling infants.
God did not spare the babies during the Flood of Genesis either.
He could have easily miracled a painless death for all of the innocent babies that haunt your thoughts.
As I said in another thread, God ultimately took ALL of the innocents to be with him.
Indeed he spared them from the wicked and corrupt adults.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 1:59 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 2:37 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 181 (170456)
12-21-2004 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by berberry
12-21-2004 2:08 PM


Berberry writes:
I guess God has a long memory, huh?
After the Amalakites had attacked Israel and Israel had fought back...
Exodus 17:14:
14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
Balaam prophesying in Numbers 24:20:
20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end shall be that he perish for ever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:08 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:27 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 181 (170459)
12-21-2004 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by berberry
12-21-2004 2:08 PM


Berberry writes:
You haven't been paying attention, have you?
I guess God has a long memory, huh?
You would do well to remember this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:08 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:36 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 181 (170463)
12-21-2004 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by berberry
12-21-2004 2:27 PM


Re: When He gonna get round to it?
Berberry writes:
Kinda funny isn't it; here we are, remembering Amalek.
More quote mining?
If he asked Moses to write it in a book, then that's not what he meant by, "put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:27 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 2:40 PM dpardo has not replied
 Message 46 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:40 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 48 of 181 (170468)
12-21-2004 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Dan Carroll
12-21-2004 2:37 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
Except that he didn't miracle away their lives. He specifically ordred men to kill them. Attacking armies of man don't traditionally offer painless deaths. (Nor do flood waters, while we're on the subject.
We don't know what they felt. However, my belief is consistent with the Bible's depiction of God and yours is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 2:37 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:53 PM dpardo has not replied
 Message 54 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 3:04 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 181 (170470)
12-21-2004 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by berberry
12-21-2004 2:40 PM


Berberry writes:
No, it means he contradicts himself. How can you erase the remembrance of something by memorializing it?
From the events that took place in 1 Samuel 15, we can deduce that, what God meant was, he would wipe out all of the Amalekites.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:40 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:56 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 181 (170474)
12-21-2004 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by berberry
12-21-2004 2:56 PM


Berberry writes:
No, we can assume. God said he would wipe out their memory under heaven. What he might have meant is immaterial, except that we might ask: why can't God say what he means?
I think it's more a problem of "why can't people interpret correctly what God says?"
As always in these matters, taking things in context helps to clear things up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 2:56 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 3:07 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 181 (170477)
12-21-2004 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dan Carroll
12-21-2004 3:04 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
Here's a clue: impale yourself on a sword.
It's not a subtle feeling; you should be able to get the gist of it.
Does anyone know for certain what these babies/children felt as they died?
You put forth your hypothesis and I put forth mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 3:04 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 3:09 PM dpardo has replied
 Message 58 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 3:10 PM dpardo has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 59 of 181 (170480)
12-21-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by berberry
12-21-2004 3:07 PM


Re: Now THAT'S an excellent point
Berberry writes:
I dunno, maybe because when we try to interpret God we fail? But what does this say about biblical innerancy?
I believe that if we ask God to help us, his Holy Spirit will help us to interpret his word.
However, being in sin will hinder or altogether prevent you from receiving this help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 3:07 PM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by berberry, posted 12-21-2004 3:12 PM dpardo has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 181 (170484)
12-21-2004 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Dan Carroll
12-21-2004 3:09 PM


Dan Carroll writes:
My hypothesis: getting killed by soldiers hurts.
Yours: no it doesn't.
You have completely (and conveniently) left God out of my hypothesis. I suggested that God could have caused them to feel nothing.
Once again, my hypothesis is consistent with what the Bible tells us about God and your hypothesis is consistent with your distorted views of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 3:09 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Dan Carroll, posted 12-21-2004 3:21 PM dpardo has replied

  
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