Tsunami: Please Explain God's Wrathful Intent

The purpose of intitiating this topic is for those who believe the recent Southeast Asian tsunami is an example of God's Wrath to answer a few simple questions, and for those who wish to engage in a debate specifically addressing the questions and their pertinent answers.The Questions:1) Is the recent tsunami in Southeast Asia an example of God's willful and wrathful intent to inflict punishment, vengence, or some other specific intent?2) If God intended punishment or vengence, for what specifically?3) If God intended punishment or vengence, why did He choose a disaster that disproportionately drowns or otherwise afflicts women, infants, the weak, elderly, and affirmed individuals rather than inflicting a punishment that specifically targets "evil doers?"4) If the tsunami is an example of God's Wrath, and God is an omniscient being, then He must realize the after-effects such as cholera, typhoid, starvation, death by thirst, diarrhea, dehydration, exposure, etc.; are those afflictions also God's intended wrath, and if so, are the relief efforts actually a work of mankind against God's Intent, hence "SIN?"If the Administrator allows this topic, please keep the initial replies confined to the questions posed in the OP at least until those initial questions are answered by other than "God works in mysterious ways," which will not be an acceptable answer in any case.Thank you for your participation regardless of from what point of view you may respond.Peace, Abshalom

SoulSlay: Thank you for your response.As you correctly assertained, what I am exploring in this thread is whether there are those onboard EvC who interpret the recent Southeast Asian tsunami as God’s Wrath for some human transgressions. I am not looking to discuss "signs of End Times, intent to convert souls by example, etc., as some of the other respondents would digress.While I already know that many Christians discount the idea that the tsunami was "God's Wrath," and have promptly organized tremendous relief efforts to help the hundreds of thousands of unfortunate folk in Southeast Asia, I still see articles in the newspapers, and even more bizarre stories online, where others who think themselves privy to God's intent, express rather radical convictions that the tsunami was a sign from above and specifically that it was a willful act of a vengeful god.Allow me to cite a couple of example.This first one is from some fellow, who the reader can see by his site’s subtitle God Hates Fags, is rather right-leaning in his beliefs:"The lands affected by this judgment from God aren’t just full of idolatry; we’re talking about places (think Thailand) that are hot spots where American businessmen travel for the express purpose of fornicating with young Asian children. It is a thriving industry over there; many of these girls are taken into that business when they are seven years old or younger. 'Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:' Col 3:5-6. And you wonder if this is the wrath of God?"
Attention Required! | CloudflareAnd here’s an interesting twist where the author refers to a particular Hindu writer who ponders the tsunami as possibly a Vedic god’s retribution against Christian missionary successes in India: God's Wrath in India? --Religious voices blame tsunami on Christian, Hindu factors - BeliefnetI could go on and on, but the same information is available to all readers with a search engine. Additionally I will say that I have read some beliefs along the same lines in my local newspaper from preachers, but mostly along the lines of "End Times" signs rather than the more radical "Wrath of God" interpretations.Again, SoulSlay, thank you for your response. I hope others will participate by answering along the intended topic until we find whether there are folks at EvC who care to interpret or justify the tsunami as "God's Wrath" for specific transgressions, whether the after-effects of the tsunami also are effects of wrath, and if so, whether relief efforts are directly in conflict with God's intent before we go veering off into debate of end times, conversion through fear of God, and other topics that already are being debated in other threads.EDIT: Phatboy, thank you also for directly answering and pertinently addressing the OP.Regards, AbshalomThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-09-2005 11:36 AM

Folks, I'm swithching computers today, and cannot respond directly to any of your fine posts until the new box is up and running.Let me offer the following as a "bur in the saddle:"(Beginning at Nahum 1:2) The LORD is a jealous and avenging God. The LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies.
(3) The LORD is slow to anger and great in power. The LORD will not leave the guilty unpunished. His way is in the whirlwind and the storm, and clouds are the dust of his feet.
(4) He rebukes the sea and dries it up. He makes all the rivers run dry. Bashan and Carmel wither and the blossoms of Lebanon fade.
(5) The mountains quake before Him and the hills melt away. The earth trembles at his presence, the world and all who live in it.
(6) Who can withstand his indignation? Who can endure his fierce anger? His wrath is poured out like fire; the rocks are shattered before him.
(7) The LORD is good, a refuge in times of trouble. He cares for those who trust in him,
(8) But with an overwhelming flood he will make an end of Nineveh. He will pursue his foes into darkness.So, if one accepts the Bible as the "Word of God," then apparently God is vengeful and wrathful toward those with whom He finds disfavor, and punishes them with fire, walls of water, etc.Since Buz is foremost thus far in supporting this theory, I will ask him to reply to one of the specific questions in the OP:Buz, if the tsunami is the "Wrath of God," and its after effects are as well, don't the relief efforts represent work against God's intented punishment?

Gilgamesh, thank you for your very interesting contributions to this thread that help keep it on topic. Isn't it interesting how all these attributings of God, Allah, or Vishnu's wrath via the tsunami are coming from fundamentalists of various religions?With regard to Buzsaw's take on it, have you found any information where a disclaimer was seen in the tsunami wave that said "Jehovah's Wake-up Call" which would be proof possitive of Buz's speculation regarding God's intent. (Am I being unfair to imply that Buz is overstepping his rabbinical authority by second-guessing God's intent? Maybe there is some obscure verse in the Bible where a Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek work should've been interpretted as "God's Early Warning" rather than "Wrath" or "Vengeance.")Buz's take on it is interesting, though, and somewhat on-topic:God sends a tsunami that indiscriminately wipes out tens of thousands of innocents along with tens of thousands of sinners.The intent is to "wake-up" the surviving sinners through the good works of Christians that rush to their aid thereby demostrating their superior goodness and the benefits of believing in the Christian god.The innocents killed by the tsunami and its after-effects are rewarded for their sacrifice by admittance to the Christian heaven after waiting in line behind the Raptured Ones.I have to admit, that is one helluva eye opener!But then it leaves an unaswered question ...Isn't the number of those to be admitted to the Christian heaven limited to a specific number somewhere in Revelation? So what's the point of the "wake-up" call? And where in the Bible does it say that Jehovah issues "wake-up" calls?So now we're back to some of the original questions in the OP:Buz, is Jehovah a wrathful and vengeful god? Doesn't the Bible say so?Is the tsunami an example of Jehovah's wrath or vengeance?If Jehovah is omniscient, then He must realize the after-effects of a tsunami include death by cholera, typhoid, dehydration, starvation, etc. Wouldn't relief efforts interfere with Jehovah's original vengeful intent?Buz, and others of like mind, I would be interested in answers that reflect specific passages in the Bible, Talmud, Quran, Vedic verses, etc., regarding God's Wrathful and Vengeful character and the intended targets and purposes for His Wrath and Vengeance.Regards, AbshalomThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-11-2005 12:58 AM

Well then, who removed the plug?

So, God incorporated planned obsolecence into the world and created free will to kick-start the process? He doesn't sound vengeful then, just self-preserving as Creator.This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-11-2005 17:34 AM

Dear Phat:Thank you for your attempt to pull the discussion back on topic. Sorry about my unfortunate spelling of "vengeance" in the OP.No, I do not wish to redirect the discussion at this time. It's apparent that no member is yet ready to claim the tsunami is God's Wrath or Vengeance, and then defend that claim or address questions #2, #3, or #4 at all.If you or another member wish to redirect the discussion in an orderly fashion with specific and related questions, feel free. Otherwise, the Administrator may feel free to close the topic after giving other members a chance to distill anything pertinent out of this mess and transfer it to another thread.If this thread is closed before I get another chance to post in it, thanks to the members who contributed interesting information and thoughtful replies.Regards, AbshalomThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-12-2005 09:09 AM

Phatboy:On second thought, lemme give this thing one last stab. I just put a brand new Dell online, so I'm breakin' it in anyway. Maybe I should try to put something together that will make it more clear what I'm shootin' for and give an example from Biblical verse to substantiate the questions in the OP more clearly.Give me an hour or two. Pressing office matters distract me from this most important task.Regards, Abshalom

In the Bible, the prophet Nahum predicted the destruction of Nineveh (see Nahum 1, 2, and 3).In Nahum 1, verses 2 through 6, the prophet describes the Hebrew god as a powerful god of wind and storm. The clouds are the dust of his feet, says Nahum.Nahum describes this stormy Hebrew wind god as one who takes VENGEANCE on his foes and maintains his WRATH against his enemies.Nineveh, the great capital of the Assyrian Empire, apparently housed a particularly villainous foe targeted for destruction by the Hebrew god’s VENGEANCE and WRATH. Nahum predicted the following misfortunes would destroy the Assyrian capital as a result to the Hebrew god’s WRATH and VENGEANCE:1. An "overwhelming flood will make an utter end of the place" (Nah. 1:8)2. Whatever plot (the Assyrians) have against the LORD, He will bring to and end; and trouble will not come a second time (from Nineveh).3. Nineveh will be destroyed and tangled in thorns while the inhabitants are "drunk with their wine" and they will be consumed (by fire) like dry stubble. (Nah. 1:10)The Hebrew god apparently utterly detests Nineveh and intends to wipe the city from the face of the earth. He commands that Nineveh will have no descendants to bear your name. I will destroy the carved images and cast idols that are in the temples of your gods. I will prepare your grave, for you are vile. (Nah. 1:14)Nahum says the city would never recover, for their "injury has no healing" (Nah. 3:19)In 612 B.C. Nabopolassar led a united Babylonian, Medean, and Scythian army against Assyrian citadels. He laid siege to Nineveh, but the walls of the city were too strong for battering rams, so he decided to starve the Assyrians out.After a three month siege, rain fell so heavily that the Tigris River inundated part of the city and overturned one of its walls for a distance of "twenty stades." The invaders laid utter waste to all parts of Nineveh that had not been destroyed by the flood.Nineveh was a substantial city around which the walls were 40 to 50 feet high and extended 4 kilometers along the Tigris River and 13 kilometers around the inner city. The city wall had 15 main gates, 5 of which have been excavated. There were parks, a botanical garden, a zoo, and a water-system including the oldest aqueduct in history at Jerwan, across the Gomel River.Nineveh was flooded, pillaged, burned, and then razed to the ground so completely that in one blow Assyria disappeared from history. Two hundred years later Xenophon's army marched across dirt mounds that once had been Nineveh and never suspected that they stood atop a former metropolis that had ruled half the world. No stones remained visible of all the temples with which Assyria's pious leaders had sought to beautify their greatest capital. http://www.crystalinks.com/nineveh.htmlNOW, ONE MORE TIME A) Is the Hebrew god a wrathful and vengeful god who deliberately causes natural and manmade disasters to befall humankind utterly destroying great swaths of inhabited landscapes as claimed in the Bible regarding Nineveh and other places?B) Does the Hebrew god, and we must assume him to also be the god of Christians and Muslims, inflict punishment for sin and corruption via disease, natural phenomena, and other inflictions whether natural or manmade that disproportionately kill women, children, the weak, the elderly, and the infirmed rather than inflicting a punishment that specifically targets evil doers as the Bible records He did in Nineveh (Sodom, Egypt, etc.)?C) Is the recent tsunami in the Indian Ocean another example of God’s Wrath and Vengeance; and if so, are the after-effects of the tsunami, such as cholera, typhoid, dehydration, starvation, and other dreadful afflictions also His intended punishment of evil doers as the after-effects of Biblical examples of the Hebrew god's wrath and vengeance were obviously visited upon all inhabitants of targetted places. (Keep in mind that in Nineveh, Sodom, and Noah's Flood, that there certainly were fetuses, newborn infants, and other innocents that died as a result of apparently indescriminate wrath and vengeance.)D) If yes to any or all of the above, then are the humanitarian relief efforts effectively a work against God’s Intent, and therefore sin?Please, no discussion of wake-up calls, plate tectonics, the Devil (whom is never mentioned as the executor of vengeful wrath to punish sin), Jesus’ instructions to extend mercy and assistance, or other apologies. We are discussing the Hebrew god’s intended wrath and vengeance as witnessed by His assigned prophets such as Nahun, Moses, Jonah, etc. I’m not looking for apologetic cop-outs, just direct answers to these four questions.Regards, AbshalomThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-12-2005 12:50 AM

Lysimachus:You say "it is the work of Satan. However, God has permitted Satan to do these things." I assume by "it" you mean the tsunami, and I must further assume by "these things" you possibly are referring to the tsunami's disasterous after-effects although you don't really make it clear.You then say that "God's judgments upon the earth are judgments inflicted by Satan." So, by that do you mean that God and Satan work as sort of a dynamic duo with God making the judgment to punish mankind and then assigning the dirty work to Satan? If so, that's a rather neat arrangement ... kinda like the one Pontius Pilate enjoyed, huh?You then go on to say that (paraphrased here) innocent women and children should be happy to sacrifice their lives in this preordained process because they should be happy to be out of this worldly mess and on their way to their just rewards. SICK!You then go on to make the haughty presumption that "the only real reason for the opening of this thread was in Abshalom's attempt to justify himself in not worshipping God. That is the only real reason." Well, aren't you the smug smart-assed know-it-all? But at least with you, after you pass your almighty judgments, at least you have the balls to carry out the dirty work yourself.You close with "just remember, the more natural disasters, catastrophes, and evil occurrences we see, it is only more evidence that for the existence God, not less." Do you really mean that "evil occurrences" are proof of God's existence? You'll have to elaborate on that one a little more. You lost me there, Lysimachus.Oh, and Lysimachus, I see that you have opened a thread similar to this one entitled "Is Something Wrong With Mother Earth." Are you insinuating that a supernatural entity exists (besides God and Satan) whose name is Mother Earth? Interesting.Anyway, earlier today I was contemplating asking the Administrators to close this thread due to the fact that none of you wacky Endtimers will directly address the questions in the OP regarding God's Wrath and Vengeance as specifically cited by His prophets and recorded in His Book. Instead, you all dodge and weave and pull the discussion way off topic with your lame, unsubstantiated fantasies.Really, I think anyone interested in anything being discussed in this thread might as well flop on over to Lysimachus's "Mother Earth" topic where all this hogwash is more pertinent.Regards, Abshalom

Juhrahnimo: Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Although I may not see things in the same light as you, I will consider your attempt to enlighten me as an act in good faith.You may also wish to browse through the "Is There Something Wrong With Mother Earth" thread to see if you want to add your responses to that topic as well.Welcome to the fray.Peace, Abshalom

The following text is exerpted from today's new wire stories:Indonesia's most influential group of Islamic clerics warned yesterday of a widespread Muslim backlash if international aid groups involved in relief efforts in tsunami-battered Aceh province begin proselytizing and adopting children orphaned from the Dec. 26 disaster."This is a reminder. Do not do this in this kind of situation," Dien Syamsuddin, secretary-general of the Indonesian Council of Ulemas, said after prayers in the main mosque of the provincial capital Banda Aceh."The Muslim community will not remain quiet. This a clear statement, and it is serious," Syamsuddin said, declining to elaborate on how the community would respond.Syamsuddin was referring to reports that U.S.-based welfare organization WorldHelp had planned to adopt 300 Acehnese children orphaned by the quake and raise them in a Christian children's home.
The group told The Associated Press on Thursday it has since abandoned those plans, but evangelist Mark Kosinski, a Wisconsin native, told The AP he thought it was impossible to separate relief activities from sharing the Gospel."These people need food, but they also need Jesus," Kosinski said. "God is trying to awaken people and help them realize that salvation is in Christ."http://www.kentucky.com/...aldleader/news/world/10651814.htmAll non-governmental organizations, either domestic or international, with hidden agendas coming here with humanitarian purposes but instead proselytizing, this is what we do not like," said Dien Syamsuddin, secretary-general of the Indonesian Council of Ulemas, as reported by the Associated Press.At Friday prayers in the main mosque of Banda Aceh, the capital of Indonesia’s Aceh province, the Muslim leader warned international relief workers of a backlash if they brought Christian proselytizing to tsunami-struck Sumatra along with their humanitarian aid.According to AP, he also condemned reports that Virginia-based World Help had planned to settle 300 Acehnese children orphaned from tsunami-ravaged Aceh to a Christian orphanage outside Jakarta, although the group said Thursday it had the dropped plans after the Indonesian government blocked the move. http://www.christianpost.com/.../...relief.efforts.with.hidden.agendas/1.htm
{Shortened display form of URL, to restore page width to normal. - Adminnemooseus}I would like to redirect this thread as follows:Leaving the question of "Tsunami = God's Wrath" aside for the moment, was God's intent, regarding the tsunami, that Christians should convert Muslim tsunami victims to Christianity?This purpose has been forwarded by previous responders to this thread. Some seem to think that Christians are called by this disaster to witness in Indonesia in order to convert souls to Jesus.In Post #22, Buzsaw offers that, perhaps Jehovah has allowed this to happen to bring the messengers of truth to these people who have been deprived by their spiritual leaders in order that they be enlightened to the way of the true savior/messiah and (away) from the false doctrines and gods (whom) they presently serve and worship.In Message #108, Phatboy says this is a lesson that while we help the tsunami victims rebuild, we need not preach to them, but to attempt to convert them to Jesus by example.Muslim clerics in Indonesia are warning Christian aid workers not to actively proselytize to Muslims tsunami victims, and warn of dire consequences, presumably violent reactions as have occurred against Christian missionaries in other Muslim countries.New Questions:1) Was the tsunami an act of God perpetrated for the purpose of activating missionary activity in Muslim communities of Indonesia?2) Did God intend by the tsunami that Christians actively proselytize in Indonesia against the stated will of Muslim clerics to prevent such proselytization?3) Are the Muslim clerics warnings against proselytizing in Indonesia a direct disregard of God's (whether He be Jehovah, HaShem, YVHV, Yah, El Shaddai, or Allah) intent regarding the tsunami?Please feel free to expand on these three questions.Regards, AbshalomThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-15-2005 12:52 AMThis message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 01-15-2005 13:04 AM

Well, thank y'all for your thoughtful responses, especially Doctor Bill who, in Message 129, answered all but one of the OP questions as well as tying them in with the latest dialog. Good job, Doc; you only left unaswered whether aid work should be considered a sin as it directly contradicts God’s intended punishment of the victimed sinners. But somehow I know what you'd say.And Thor, your Message 130 introduces a twist on the humanitarian aid thing by equating the Christian missionaries with ambulance chasing lawyers. Wow, no one else even hinted at that irony.Then Fatboy, in Message # 131, reminds us that everything happens for a reason (is that a predestination thing?) and Crashfrog reminds us in Message 128 that our own American Pacific Coast is due for its own earthshaking natural disasters. So, it’s implied that we should prepare to open our our arms, our shorelines, our homes, and our hearts to Muslim missionaries who come to save lives and souls when the West Coast is hit by earthquakes and tsunamis in the future.Now, please remember early on, in a link in Gilgamesh’s Message 21, this quote:The shorelines of many Asian countries hit by the waves - including Indonesia - had become playgrounds for Westerners and errant Muslims. Vices such as prostitution and drinking were rife, (the Muslim cleric said). "Allah first sends small punishments - like loss of business. If we ignore the warning, He sends bigger ones - loss of life. If we still ignore the warnings, the big punishments, like earthquakes and tsunamis will come."So, based upon the Muslim interpretation that the Indian Ocean tsunami indeed was the Biblical God’s wrath, and based on our apparent consensus at this point in the thread that good, God-fearing folk should respond by witnessing to the wicked sinners victimized by supernatural disasters, we must expect and welcome Muslim proselytizers when God inflicts punishment on those wayward, wine drinking, same sex marrying, nude beach sunbathing, West Coast heathens. To do less would be a sinThis message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-16-2005 09:35 AM