Right wing conservatives are evil? Well, I have evidence that they are.

prophex write me:

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Another thing that got mixed up, when I said this is trivial, I was referring to the disscussion on homosexuals, when there are many more important things that we should be talking about.

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Okay, prop, I'm going to take your word for it that you mean no harm and that you are trying to be open-minded. But if that's true then you need to also understand that this statement right here is insulting and bigoted. Bigotry and prejudice are, to those of us whe are the targets of bigotry and prejudice, very important issues. They are in no way trivial.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

prophex writes:

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Right now, I would ask for another chance, but that isn't what you want me to have, you're loving this, this is your chance to keep this thing going. Suit yourself.

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I'm overjoyed to give you another chance. Only now have you made clear that you really are apologizing and acknowledging your earlier misleading terminology. Only now have you apologized in what seems to be sincerity for the other bigoted statements you've made. I'm more than happy to accept your apology and I'm delighted to see that you have come to understand that it is important to try to see these matters from a different perspective. I hope you really will try to do that, and perhaps in future we can be more friendly toward one another.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

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Okay, prop, I'm going to take your word for it that you mean no harm and that you are trying to be open-minded. But if that's true then you need to also understand that this statement right here is insulting and bigoted. Bigotry and prejudice are, to those of us whe are the targets of bigotry and prejudice, very important issues. They are in no way trivial.

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This statement:

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Another thing that got mixed up, when I said this is trivial, I was referring to the disscussion on homosexuals, when there are many more important things that we should be talking about.

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Was referring to the endless debates on whether or not homosexuality is good or evil. Or like the disscussion we had these past days, Natural. These matters, are trivial for me to partake in. They really don't apply to me, and I am happy that this squabble has come to a close. I like the idea of being friendly, sometimes it gets a little crazy in here. My main point is that by talking about it, we are treating homosexuals as something seperate, and different than other humans, I think you would agree that, that isn't good.

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more mmmmmore to the the human race

prophex writes me:

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My main point is that by talking about it, we are treating homosexuals as something seperate, and different than other humans, I think you would agree that, that isn't good.

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I agree very much with the sentiment, but please understand that these arguments are necessary for the same reasons other minority groups have had to air similar arguments. As long as bigotry and prejudice are affecting our lives, we gays will be forced to engage these discussions for the very reason that we are viewed by so many as separate and different. As you imply, we aren't separate or different from other humans, but we will only be recognized that way once the bigotry and prejudice are gone (or at least marginalized).

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

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I used reason to come to the conclusion that homosexuality is nonsense, almost fully based on immediate gratification, or false inklings of what one thinks love is.

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That's not an answer to my question.My question was: "Did you use reason to decide what your sexual orientation is?The answer to that question would be a "yes" or a "no".

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That's what many people would like me to believe, unfortunately for them and yourself, I can reason,

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So can other animals.And how does being able to reason make you not part of nature?

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and type up this letter to you on this device called a computer, designed by humans.

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You can use a tool.So can lots of other animals.

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What is natural is sometimes thought of what is a normalcy,

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...which is how you are treating the word.But that's due to your religious view.

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or of regular occurence. In this case it's rare.

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So, even if it's rare, it's natural, correct?

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Seeking out truth through experience of the outside world is 1up on the scientific method.

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What?"Experience of the outside world" is EXACTLY what science is all about.

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Existentialism, through what I do, that is my reality.

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No, that's just a philosophy that is all inside your own head.

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And this is why everything that I do matters, contrary to other animal's robot like functions.

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Why do you think animals function like robots?OTOH, why do you think that much of your function isn't automatic?

You don't have to bother responding if you don't agree but have nothing more to add to your description of what is going on. I am simply going to give this bit a further explanation to make my explanation clear. People can decide after that... This part is correct, but this... ...is simply not accurate. They do not want people to believe that things that God does not like are synonymous with things that don't exist in nature, nor vice versa. That would be in the "same way".The only way this is similar is that they want people to believe what they say, period; that their way of doing science is equal to modern science, and that homosexuality is wrong according to God as it is against his intentions. No really, their definition is in the Bible, only the actor who is using the term (in the Bible) is not a human being, and since the dictionary does not usually assume the role of aliens or Gods for sake of discussing their definitions, it does not literally read the same way. To say it is not in the Dictionary is nitpicking beyond belief.I think what you mean to say is that the only authority they have, other than themselves, to show that it is unnatural (ie immoral, against his intent) to the creator of the Universe is the Bible.I tend to think the day we find any moral statements or authority within the dictionary, we are in a lot of trouble. It simply shows what possible meanings a word has, in this case the Bible gives the meaning greater context (which is of course different than objective authority). Well it certainly was unreasonable any way you cut it. It was simply added color using hyperbolic language to describe your (alleged) behavior.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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My question was: "Did you use reason to decide what your sexual orientation is?

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The answer to that question would be a "yes" or a "no".

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Nope, through society's impact on me, and mainly a natural feeling about it, I sort of realized that I like girls.Almost less of a realization and more of a natural feeling.Why does it have to become personal though?This message has been edited by prophex, 04-02-2005 05:23 PM

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The escape exists within ourselves, not within the bank account's numbers of papers.

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So can other animals.

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You can use a tool.

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So can lots of other animals.

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O yeah, tell your cat to send me an e-mail, could use some insight on his feelings about the meaning of life.Jokes aside, you have to be joking to actually argue this stuff.

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But that's due to your religious view.

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Really, how do you know?

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"Experience of the outside world" is EXACTLY what science is all about.

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Do you apply the scientific method when seeking out meaning and truth in this life?

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No, that's just a philosophy that is all inside your own head.

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So, you don't think that what actions I do matter? That what I do makes a difference, and effects the rest of the world no matter the size? Though what one does, life, reality as we know it changes, for them and us.

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Why do you think animals function like robots?

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What they do has less meaning, it sort of becomes tasks performed again and again, with less variation than the actions of humans, although humans sort of develop routines and become working robots themselves, what goes on is not only the task at hand.What makes you want to see other animals as equals? That can't be true, they can be fun, and helpers, but beyond that they are more a part of nature, that we simply cannot be apart of. We are outside of it, and have built barriers, although it leaks through and remains still very much a part of us, we are still seperated.What does OTOH mean?

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The escape exists within ourselves, not within the bank account's numbers of papers.

charlie you and schraf are different from the animals but most human beings aren't much different than homo habilis.
an e-mail and a cat calling out to her sister isn't much different, its the conntent in the email. Our ability to reason is the only thing that separates us. most ppl dont reason they simply live to survive like the animals to gain some luixuries or some meaningless possession before tghey are covered in dust and buried and then they come to that realization...It's kind of sad that a person's existence couldn't be more than that of an animal or the habilis.......

I haven't complained once about what you have against homosexuality. Look again. I was complaining about your waving around that wonderful population genetics knowledge you supposedly had. Besides, I do have a beating heart. You already have your hands full with holmes, berberry, and a few others.This message has been edited by Troy, 04-02-2005 06:17 PM

holmes writes me:

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To say it is not in the Dictionary is nitpicking beyond belief.

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No it isn't, it is saying that the compilers of the dictionaries don't accept the authority of the bible with respect to definitions. So why should I?

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They do not want people to believe that things that God does not like are synonymous with things that don't exist in nature, nor vice versa. That would be in the "same way".

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But they DO want people to believe that homosexuality is against nature. Thus, they aren't simply arguing that homosexuality is unnatural in the eyes of their silly God; they are implying that homosexuality actually goes against nature, which of course it does not.

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I tend to think the day we find any moral statements or authority within the dictionary, we are in a lot of trouble.

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Well we certainly agree about that. That's one of my greatest fears at the moment, especially since we've just witnessed how fundies in government have reacted to the Terri Schiavo tragedy. These people have power and they think that the law of the bible is higher than the law of the constitution. People on our side need to quit arguing so much amongst ourselves and focus our energies on defeating them.

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Well it certainly was unreasonable any way you cut it.

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You seem to be retracting the tone of that post. The hyperobole was not obvious, it seemed that you were entirely serious. I'm glad to see that you weren't, and if it'll make you feel better I'll try to remember to interpret the 'homosexuality is unnatural' argument in terms of 'against nature' rather than 'not occurring in nature' in future. Just for you, of course, because this still seems to me to be exceedingly pedantic.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

chris procelain writes, or perhaps I should say he repeats the claim:

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Our ability to reason is the only thing that separates us.

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Not exactly. I think scraf already mentioned that some animals can reason, and she's correct. What truly separates humans from lower animals is a capacity for complex abstract thought and reason. The word 'complex' is important here because I believe there is some evidence for simple abstract thought on the part of some apes and dolphin. If I'm wrong, then someone with more knowledge in this area can correct me.ADDED IN EDIT: Was it from Steel Magnolias that we got the delightful line that runs something like "what separates us from the lower animals is our ability to accessorize"?This message has been edited by berberry, 04-02-2005 06:12 PM

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

prophex writes:

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Nope, through society's impact on me, and mainly a natural feeling about it, I sort of realized that I like girls.

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So can you understand that homosexuality is not a choice? You didn't choose heterosexuality, you just found that you were in fact heterosexual. Same with me, I never made a choice. This is just who I am. I am not attracted to girls, just as you are not attracted to boys. You wouldn't be able to "choose" homosexuality because it isn't you. Likewise, I would never be able to "choose" heterosexuality because it isn't me.

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Keep America Safe AND Free!

And you never bothered to question how or why you started liking girls. You should be aware that just the thought of being with a girl makes me want to vomit. In my early days, I never understood why people liked girls. I think you are currently in the same mindset. You think in an egocentric way: I like girls, therefore it must be the natural way for everyone. I like pizza, therefore Chinese people are unnatural because they don't like pizza.Which, by the way, my dad is still convinced that Americans are unnatural because they don't physically discipline their kids, they eat hamburgers, they wear shoes most of the day, name their kids after their elders (in asian culture, you only name your kids your enemies' names... it makes you your enemies' father, which is suppose to be an insult to them), etc. He's old, so I'm not going to try to change his mindset on that. You're young, so you need to realize that not everyone like the same food as you do.That's my 2 dong for the day.