The Whys of Evolution

I don't know who taught you high school biology, but my HS biology teacher was very clear that science doesn't care about the so-called "why" of the matter. She made it very clear to us that the theory of evolution explains what we see happening in the natural world and that you can believe whatever you want as to the force behind it (if any). If you are a science student, one of the most recurring theme is the "we don't know" or "I don't know" answer.

You've reached the limit of my patience.There is growing evidence that christianity is evil and that all christians are pedophiles. Hey, if you don't feel like providing the actually evidence then I don't see why I should provide the actual evidence for my claim. Funny how you said this considering the fact that #1 is a strawman statement. If you're going to criticize someting, at least do it right.Not including the statement above, have you seen me ever made a claim that christianity is all about cannibalism?

I would hardly say it was uncalled for. How would you like it if you consistently hear people say that christians are cannibals?I believe you said the following:

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These seem to cover all the bases. I believe that not all microevolutionary processes are undirected. There is growing evidence that some processes are the result of mechanisms instead of pure chance-mutations, natural selection and some other processes. So I'm all for #3, and yes there is an element of faith in that choice.

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First of all, except for creos, who in the world ever said that "microevolutionary processes" are undirected? There's the first strawman.The article you pointed to said, and I believe you were referring to,:

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Some cells, like bacteria subjected to antibiotics, seem to acquire mutations at a much higher rate. Romesberg reasons that these rapid mutations may sometimes be part of a mechanism organisms have to rapidly evolve when they need to.

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Combined with the first strawman, take this statement out of context, and you implied a second strawman.This is like saying, "since christians are cannibals, and that some christians like to drink the blood of christ, it is probable that christians are bloodthirsty cannibals."

Not necessarily.Suppose I walk along the lake and see a set of footprints. I, therefore, can conclude that someone else walked this path before me.In science, especially quantum physics, we can't observe things directly. We have to rely on observing the influence that these things have on the observable things.I know what you meant to say. I just want to make sure as a preemptive strike against the popular "you can't see air..."

What decision? You were raised a certain way and that is the only way you know. I know that either of us can start pointing out isolated cases contradicting either of our claims, but the general trend seems to indicate that people are born into their religion. The other thing is people generally don't accept religions they don't understand. For example, would you ever consider becoming a Taoist? But when we are talking in such general terms, we look at the overall picture and not individual isolated cases, and the general picture seem to indicate that you are not very likely to find an Arab born into a Muslim family and decides to become a christian later on.

See? You don't know the first thing about it and it is because you didn't grow up with it. What you just said is the equivilence of "Christianity is very similar to cannibalism."Sorry about the cannibalism thing, guys. I watched Hannibal and DOTD a few nights ago. Remember what I said about pointing out isolated cases? Well, no wonder why a homophobic racist warmonger got into office twice.

I don't get it. What's preventing you from sending your kids to catholic school, or lutheran school, or whatever? Why do you want to teach YOUR BELIEFS (YOUR FAITH) to MY KIDS in a PUBLIC INSTITUTION? The thing is I don't ever recall learning about atheism in school. In fact, I don't recall learning about anything pertaining to any faith at all.How would you like it if they invite rabbi to start teaching Jewish faith to your kids in school?Try to see the big picture, dude.

You forgot my other question. What's preventing you, and other people like you, from sending your kids to religion school? In other words, why should my tax dollars pay for your kids' religious education?

List of religions and spiritual traditions - WikipediaThe above link is a list of world religions. Having been through years of formal education (I'm still working on the big jackpot of all degrees), that list looks like 8 years of college to me.

What a funny thing to say, considering that my rights are being taken away one by one by religious people. I used to talk to god everyday... every other hour. I used to read the bible every night before sleep. I used to do all of that.By the way, I just found out a friend of mine got beaten up by some religious freaks because he was a "fag". So, don't lecture me on how religious people are more tolerant and all that crap. The reason I am promoting secularism is because it is the only way we can make a state completely free for everyone to worship whatever/however he wants. As soon as we bring religion into the classroom, or state policy, other religions will be in danger of loosing their rights.I assure you, if anyone ever wants to push through legislations that limit your rights to worship inside your house (remember that anti-sodomy law that states people can't even do certain things inside their own bedrooms?), I will be among the first to protest. If they manage to get it through, I will die fighting along your side.The reason I am so much against religion inside the classroom is because I am tolerant of all religions.Again, take a look at the wiki list I posted. Tell me which ones should be taught inside the classroom and which ones should be left out. Perhaps because I wasn't assuming that at all. Just because you are tolerant doesn't mean others are. In fact, the majority of the people I have talked to are against islamic and jewish teachings when it comes to their kids.In this case, "you" was meant for "you should think in terms of the general populace". What do you call a person that tried to pass a second amendment banning gay marriage, considering that there's already one in place? Me too, actually. Don't forget to teach them about how to justify slavery, sexism, racism, genocide, etc. by using the bible. Perhaps we should have another round of witch hunt?I'm being childish, aren't I? How much do you know about the theory of evolution?Let me tell you a story. I was debating with some people a while back. They were convinced that quantum mechanics was imaginary. They went on and on about what they believed (I just stood back and listened... they were all mumble jumble).You see, we live in a world where everyone has an opinion about everything, including things they don't know crap about.The reason evolution is taught in school is because it is a very well established fact, just like gravity. We see it happening everyday right before our eyes. I saw it happening right in my lab not long ago. Those are the kinds of stuff that are being taught.I would have no problem with religion being taught in school IFF people can replicate miracles.Edited to change "which" to "witch". Yes, I actually proof read my posts.This message has been edited by GAW-Snow, 05-24-2005 05:58 PM

That's called quantum mechanics. No problem. Just about every major religion I know advocates intolerance of people that are different than them. In fact, just about every major religion I know used to advocate extreme violence and sometimes even genocide.In fact, I don't recall any religious group protesting when they wanted to put up that monument for Matthew Sheppard. I, however, recall a lot of people holding up signs that said "Matthew Sheppard is in hell..." and other hate messages at his funeral.Even though I am tolerant of all religions and that I believe people can believe whatever they want, I strongly believe that religion will almost always lead to hate and suffering.Ok, how do you make me less cranky? You can start by giving me a free vacation to Hawaii.Edited to add "to" in between "vacation" and "Hawaii".This message has been edited by GAW-Snow, 05-24-2005 07:32 PM

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King Nadkicker

That's just it. It seems like a miracle to you because you can't compare it with normal everyday experiences.A native in the Amazon might view a television set or a radio as a miracle, and we both can agree that anyone person with enough know-how can build one from scratch. Heck, when I was in high school, I built a robot from scratch that went anywhere I programmed it to, given that finding the parts that were cheap enough for it was a little hard... wanted to put a camera on it but couldn't afford one... imagine the possibilities... He he he. *Ahem... no-true-scotsman...cough cough* But you are forgetting the fact that the overwhelming majority of the population in the world are religious. The United States is the most religious country in the Western World, and it is the religious people that are pushing through laws to limit my rights.Back in the old days, when more people were more religious, slavery was A-OK. Then, a few people turned away from religion as their source of morality and ta-da slavery ended, but we still had racism all over the place. The KKK was/is a religious group themselves. A few more people stopped using religion to dictate their lives and we finally got over racist laws.Coincidently, the South (AKA bible belt) are as racist as ever. Just a few months ago, Alabama had a vote to see if people wanted to take out the segregation and anti-interracial marriage out of their law book (those laws were overwritten by Federal laws). As I recall correctly, 60-75% of the population of that state wanted to keep those laws in the book. Coincidently, yet again, Alabama is probably the leading religious state in the U.S. Oh, by the way, they also have one of the highest divorce rates (among the top 5).Nowadays, people like myself are being beaten, kicked, and outlawed. Texas just banned gays from adopting children (in other words, they'd rather these kids go around homeless than letting us adopt them). The supreme court had only declared anti-sodomy laws as unconstitutional in 2003. This happened because they actually arrested and wanted to put 2 men in prison for 20 years for sharing their love in their own bedroom in 1997.You are trying to convince us that religion teaches people tolerance and love and all of that crap. Yet, history and present day affairs seem to contradict and have always contradicted your view. In fact, I really don't see how religion will ever be able to teach people that tolerance is a good thing.Going back to one of your other statements:

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I very much disagree with your basic premise. The religion I know by far the most about is Christianity. Christianity is about loving your neighbour, and your enemy for that matter. As I said, there will always be those who pervert the faith for a variety of motives. God is God and people will always be people. Tolerating other's points of view does not mean that you have to agree with them but true religion does mean that you respect them and love them.

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Remember Nazi Germany? Do you really think that their victims would agree that those committing those attrocities weren't really Germans? They were something else, but they were not real Germans because real Germans were not suppose to do all those things.This is why I coughed out "no true scotsman" earlier. You can define a christian as something that only yourself can fit that category and voila the rest of the christian world seizes to be christian.

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King Nadkicker

You're kinda using the world "theory" a little too liberally.

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King Nadkicker

Actually, it was the other way around. The majority of the churches at the time were very much for slavery. They even taught the slaves that if they remained good slaves that they would find rewards in heaven. I actually wrote an essay on the biblical arguments for slavery. Trust me, the bible is littered with passages supporting slavery. I don't know. Does it? I don't agree. I judge them based on what kind of impact they have on people. With the case of christianity, it doesn't seem very people friendly. That's why I always encourage people to abandon faith overall and take as many philosophy classes as they can, especially philosophy of ethics.Even though I view religion as the fuel source for hate, I see ignorance as the spark and the fire. As far as I know, not a single christian I know know or heard of moral theories in philosophy of ethics. They all seem to think that reading the bible alone makes them good christians.You see, philosophy makes people think and pushes their limits further back. It makes people realize that you don't need a middle man (AKA god) to find morality. And by being able to think for themselves, they will learn empathy.Doesn't it strike you odd that most christian rednecks can't even read properly (not meant to be taken literally)? It's because religion encourages ignorance more than any other philosophy.Edited to add:And what Ringo said above.This message has been edited by GAW-Snow, 05-25-2005 12:14 PM

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King Nadkicker

Technically, an ape can't be a christian.