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Author Topic:   The Whys of Evolution
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 13 of 108 (210703)
05-23-2005 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by GDR
05-23-2005 4:23 PM


Re: An act of faith
GDR writes:
I contend that there is no scientic proof for the non-existance of ID, therefore it becomes an "act of faith" to declare the non-existance of ID.
First, you can't "prove" the non-existence of anything. (People have an annoying habit of finding something the day after you "proved" it didn't exist.)
ID can not be accepted until somebody produces evidence that it does exist. There is no "act of faith" required to not believe in something.
Second, read your Bible:
Hebrews 11:1 writes:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Science depends on the evidence of things that are seen. Science does not depend on faith. It doesn't even allow faith.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 05-23-2005 4:23 PM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 29 of 108 (210885)
05-24-2005 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by GDR
05-24-2005 2:05 PM


GDR writes:
I would say though that the major choice we make, is whether you accept the concept that there is a deity or not.
I have no trouble accepting the concept of a deity. But "faith" is not usually directed at some vague concept of a deity.
How do you decide which deity you believe in? And what qualifies you to make that decision?
We all have to come to grips with the "why's" in out lives - ("Why me?") - but that is a personal journey. It has no place in education.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 2:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 3:42 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 39 of 108 (210926)
05-24-2005 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by GDR
05-24-2005 3:42 PM


GDR writes:
I don't understand why you would ask what qualifies me to make that decision.
As GAW-Snow has pointed out, you know nothing about Taoism, so how are you qualified to choose another religion in its place?
What qualifies me to vote in a particular way?
Voting is a collective decision. Your vote is not solely responsible for the decision.
What if you vote for the "wrong" party? So what? But if you choose the wrong god(s)....
I certainly am in a position to make a more informed position if I am educated about the choices available.
But you don't get that education in school.
There is a place in our schools for teaching how the government works, etc. But our schools don't tell us what political choices are available, do they? That's the role of the media.
Similarly, our schools should not tell us what religious choices are available. That's the role of the church and the home.
If politics or religion find their way into the schools, it is inevitable that some viewpoints will be left out. If some choices are left off the ballot, how does that make you more informed?

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 3:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 5:07 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 45 of 108 (210939)
05-24-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by GDR
05-24-2005 5:07 PM


GDR writes:
If I waited until I knew everything about any decision that I had to make I'd never make one.
Isn't it interesting? What some people consider the most important decision they'll ever make - the choice of a religion - is one of the easiest to make. It just goes to show what several people have been saying here - most people choose a "faith" based on what or who is around them, not based on what's inside them.
People do base their faith on incomplete knowledge - even in a society like ours, where the information is readily available. Putting religious indoctrination in the schools will not make them use the information in a different way.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by GDR, posted 05-24-2005 5:07 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 54 of 108 (210995)
05-24-2005 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by EZscience
05-24-2005 9:16 PM


Satisfaction
EZscience writes:
I find far more intellectual satisfaction in considering non-theistic explanations of nature than theistic ones.
I agree 100%.
And take note, GDR: that's non-theistic explanations, not atheistic explanations. It has nothing to do with whether or not I believe in god(s). "God did it" just isn't a satisfying explanation.
Relating to the topic of the thread: the "why" is just not as interesting as the "how".

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by EZscience, posted 05-24-2005 9:16 PM EZscience has not replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 66 of 108 (211133)
05-25-2005 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by GDR
05-25-2005 11:54 AM


GDR writes:
It seems to me that if you want to judge Buddhism you go to the teachings of Buddha, if you want to judge Judaism read what the prophets had to say and if you want to judge Christanity read Christ's message.
Matthew 7:20-21 writes:
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Jesus himself (quoted by Matthew) told us to judge people by what they do, not what they say.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by GDR, posted 05-25-2005 11:54 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by GDR, posted 05-25-2005 2:50 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 79 of 108 (211216)
05-25-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by GDR
05-25-2005 2:50 PM


GDR writes:
...the discussion was about evaluating the truth of the faith, (in this case the Christian faith) and not about judging those who claim to be adherents.
But how does anybody - especially an outsider - evaluate the truth of the faith?
Suppose somebody lurks at EvC knowing nothing about the Christian faith. They see somebody saying, "I'm a Christian and the Bible says the world was created in six days and you're a !@#$% if you don't believe it and blah blah blah blah...."
That is how that person will percieve the Christian faith. How we see faiths other than our own is very much based on empirical evidence and not on what we hear in philosophy classes.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by GDR, posted 05-25-2005 2:50 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 81 by GDR, posted 05-25-2005 4:27 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 108 (211245)
05-25-2005 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by GDR
05-25-2005 4:27 PM


GDR writes:
I think that we would agree....
Yes. For the most part, I think we would.
The main problem I have with religious studies in schools is the inherent unfairness. It is not possible, in the time available, to give all religions "equal time", nor is it possible to have teachers who are equally well-versed in all religions. Under those conditions, religious studies become indoctrination, not education.
Another problem, which GAW-Snow has touched on, is the danger of that indoctrination being intentionally slanted by teachers.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by GDR, posted 05-25-2005 4:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 442 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 108 (211499)
05-26-2005 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by GDR
05-25-2005 6:48 PM


Although it's been a long, long time, I don't recall ever knowing what a teacher's personal beliefs were.
I knew the religious affiliation of two of my teachers only because I had accidentally met them while visiting their respective churches. One taught ancient history without ever mentioning the Bible. The other taught science without ever mentioning Creation or ID. I'm sure none of their other students even knew they were church-goers.

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by GDR, posted 05-25-2005 6:48 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by GDR, posted 05-26-2005 2:23 PM ringo has not replied

  
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