For those concerned with Free Speech (or Porn), it is time to get active.

What on Earth does the forced prostitution of children have to do with increased sexual freedom? I think that forced prostitution is pretty clearly a lack of sexual freedom.You go on to claim that: That is in fact the opposite of the truth, like many of your claims, Faith. Back it up or shut up.This message has been edited by mikehager, 06-28-2005 11:29 AM

Tal,
I'm sure you'll agree that freedom has it's pros and cons that vary from individual to individual.Freedom is not YOUR ideas protected, but to protect the ideas you hate.Your argument against pornography can be made against music, TV, movies, video games, books, groups, as well as guns.......so where does it stop?Your quote from Ted Bundy ONLY highlights the fact that when someone is mentally disturbed they can use ANYTHING as a trigger for their twisted fantasies. The person who kills because of a movie, or the person who commits suicide because of a song....should we outlaw music and movies as well?It is an insidious move to begin tampering with freedoms because it makes it easier to tamper further and it might affect you next.

That was what he claimed to be doing but it was totally insincere. Had he sincerely repented of his actions he would have given all the information about his victims so their families could recover their remains or at least have some more information of their final disposition. Instead he withheld some information cynically attempting to delay his death sentence.I've cited two authors who researched this case in great depth and have written indepth studies of Ted. Neither believe Ted became who he was through porn. It's not yet clear what causes psychopathy but failure to bond in early life seems to be significant, perhaps some other genetic or developemental processes are also present.Sociopaths may use porn, or alcohol and drugs, or prostitutes, or religion, or the law, or medicine to practise their manipulation of people. But it's not caused by porn.lfen

If you had followed the thread you might possibly have noticed that I was responding to Schrafinator's claim that India is superior because of its religious sexual imagery, to which I answered with the information about temple prostitution of children. Is the society admirable for its sexual openness or not? And the theme of abuses has been discussed on this thread by others.If you want me to elaborate my own view of it, porn is an abuse, an exploitation. It's an abuse of sexuality as such. It is, basically, infidelity. Even if you don't (yet) have a spouse it is an abuse of the one you may yet have, and it certainly is infidelity to your present spouse. Men often try to get their partners involved in porn with them, but most women just feel alienated by it, may go along with it to please the man but would rather not. Porn trains a person in preferences that may be imposed on the spouse against (her) wishes, or lead a person to look outside the marriage to fulfill them. It TEACHES sexual inclinations, as much as it expresses what is already there. It is an interference with a loving sexual relationship.Now of course everyone will yell that it's not so.I'd REALLY appreciate a little politeness. "Shut up" is not polite. If you'd read through the thread you'd have seen that my remarks were in context, and were not addressed to you in any case.This message has been edited by Faith, 06-28-2005 11:41 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 06-28-2005 11:43 AM

I think you got the main points, though the founding fathers one might be unpacked a little further into:*Porn would not have qualified as speech to the founding fathers as part of the Bill of Rights and thus is unConstitutionally protected speech.*Porn is something the founding fathers found morally offensive and would have wanted such laws (as we are discussing) put in place to address it.Technically those are different arguments, since this legislation is used to bypass the 1st amendment protections, which in itself suggests a recognition that porn does in fact fall under its protection.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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f you had followed the thread you might possibly have noticed that I was responding to Schrafinator's claim that India is superior because of its religious sexual imagery

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I don't quite remember her using the word "superior" - can you point me towards it?

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to which I answered with the information about temple prostitution of children.

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So - even pre-1960s (Which you seem to think is a watermark period), your christian priests were still abusing children - what does that have to do with the core issue?

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Men often try to get their partners involved in porn with them, but most women just feel alienated by it,

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So women can't find pornography on their own? they need a man to guide them towards it? How do you account for the raising numbers of women directors making pornograhy for women? What about Lesbians, do men guide them to Pornography?

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Porn trains a person in preferences that may be imposed on the spouse against (her) wishes

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I don't get what you mean about perferences? Kissing? anal sex, oral, urnating on each other? dressing up as Batman and Catwoman,you need to be less vague in your posts.

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Porn trains a person in preferences that may be imposed on the spouse against (her) wishes, or lead a person to look outside the marriage to fulfill them.

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So if I watch a movie that features scenes of Coprophilia or Urolagnia I'll be trained to enjoy such things and then force my girlfriend to become involved. Even if I find such practices distastful, the viewing of such material will "change" me?Please be precise in your answers.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 28-Jun-2005 11:53 AM

In the US at least if someone is murdered it's more likely someone they know even an intimate family member. Linda Lovelace is an ancedotal story that even if true would be insufficient on it's own to establish this as a widespread pattern. Marriage seems far riskier as most abuse is done by husbands to their wives even to the point of death. Should we then outlaw marriage?lfen

Yes, though forced prostitution is as the author noted not about sexual freedom, or even openness. Forced anything is neither freedom nor openness. There is absolutely nothing factually wrong with your feeling that this is true. This is a personal impression and totally valid. Living your life by this and suggesting to others that they might want to view it this way is valid.I do not agree with this and have my own view. The question I have is if you will grant me that I could also not be wrong and that living my life as I see it will not bring around the end of the world? How would you know this is true? I could say the same thing about kids and church, and I'm pretty sure that would be more true. This is where you are wrong. 100% wrong. Porn (and by the way the topic here not just porn as it includes any graphic sexual content) is FANTASY, it is not REALITY or a TRAINING MANUAL. I suppose you can get some ideas of positions or fantasies you might want to try, but if they are not in you to begin with they are not going to be appealing and you are not going to "learn" them.To believe the above is true is to also believe that adventure films are training people to abandon their families and jobs in order to make love to strange women while saving the world from evil. Is this true? Do you learn anything from adventure films, or do you like adventure films that appeal to your personal fantasies?Images of sexual organs by themselves or in action, do not suddenly change the medium they are in or what it can and cannot do. Fantasy is fantasy, training films are training films.Porn does evoke sexual excitement, but then what is the qualitative difference between that and other kinds of excitement? Hey, is that supposed to work? Great.I'd REALLY appreciate a little politeness. Using arguments that are nothing but ad hominem attacks on me are not polite. Refusing to address the actual topic by dodging into discussions about why you don't like porn is not polite. Misrepresentating historical facts is not polite.Thank you.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Jared Diamond has written a very well researched book on the wealth and dominance of Europe and the US. He points to many factors including natural resources and climate and geography that influenced the rise of civilization. It is a well documented, well written and argued book for a lay audience but having great academic depth. He covers a lot of ground and I know that there will be academics who disagree with it in varying measure but I find the book very persuasive.Religion was not a major factor in the rise of the west, natural resources in food and materials and a way for these innovations to spread to other groups is key. The problem began in the forties when the US emerged from WWII as an imperial power. There is nothing anyone can do about this, the momentum is huge, but the idea that any nation could indefinately sustain the huge expense of empire is absurd. China has the longest record and it may move to the top once again after having been down for a long time.Look at England or Europe and not the third world as the most probable outcome. After the the US spends itself into collapse trying to project power all around the globe with huge military and diplomatic spending, and a few very rich people exploit us politically to become even richer (read the Bushes and their buddies) we might risk becoming a third world country if the rich manage to reduce the middle class and create a large working class kept very poor to work cheaply then we might have a third world scenario.I'm more optimistic. I hope the US can slip from being The Imperial Power and become a nation like Canada, Sweden, Finland, England, etc. taking care of it's people and cooperating with the other nations.lfen

It's a special case because degradation is the main theme. In the mainstream movie genre, there are many themes.I don't see what Christianity has got to do with this issue.

Robin,Given the problem you've presented do you think this bill is a solution? Is there a solution you advocate?lfen

If it is not against their will, if they are not being forced either overtly or subtly, I have no problem with pornography from a legal standpoint (morally is another matter).But I have suspicions.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 06-28-2005 11:48 AM

Regulate it openly. Make sure the porn is not controlled by pimps.

You have said this is the main theme a couple of times, you still have not backed this viewpoint.Can you provide any evidence for this viewpoint?

This is starting to get off of the main topic (not that this thread hasn't already left the main topic), but what sort of regulations would you suggest? Why do you think that current labor law, as well as current assault and battery and kidnapping laws, are not sufficient in themselves?