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Author
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Topic: Does Islam need a Reformation?
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Location, location, location.
And where in the passages does it limit it to some specific geographic location?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 157 of 300 (227881)
07-30-2005 4:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 156 by Faith
07-30-2005 4:25 PM
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Re: *** BZZZZT! STOP RIGHT THERE!!!***
Please show where the directions are limited to just Israelites. Shall I repeat posting the sections? Have you ever read the Bible?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 156 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 4:25 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Well, there are commands in the Bible to kill people.
Well, styles vary. But there are terrorists of all stripes. There are the Tamil Tigers, ETA, Sendero Luminoso, the IRA (but recent diplomatic events may minimize that one God willing). Then there are people like Falwell, Phelps, Robertson, Swaggart, Scott, Roberts, Larson. They've learned that by not directly calling for jihad they can sucker more fundies into parting with cash. Gold over jihad, that's the Christian way.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 163 of 300 (227893)
07-30-2005 4:44 PM
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Reply to: Message 159 by Faith
07-30-2005 4:31 PM
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Re: The usual out of context red herring from jar
As well as the stranger. Faith, you can play word games all you want but That's what the Bible says.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 159 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 4:31 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 169 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 6:21 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Location, location, location.
Yup. It tells the Israelites to kill others. It does not limit in anyway who they should kill. For example, 14: Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard him lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him. Where does it say stone an Israelite that curses?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 171 of 300 (227952)
07-30-2005 6:24 PM
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Reply to: Message 169 by Faith
07-30-2005 6:21 PM
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Re: The usual out of context red herring from jar
It applied to the stranger. Kill both believer and non-believer. You finally agree to that. Now we can go on. Show where it does not apply anywhere an Israeli might be?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 169 by Faith, posted 07-30-2005 6:21 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: The many versus the one
Like the analysis of the Bible and Koran, this is becoming so close to ridiculous that the line is getting hard to find. During WWII there were many organizations all over the world that allied with the Axis. This was particularly true in the Empire Countries. There were groups in the British Mandate, Egypt, India, South Africa that sided with the Axis. There were groups in Algeria that wanted freedom from France that sided with the Axis. It had nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with politics.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: The many versus the one
However, my point that this alliance also had to do with two forms of fascism colluding stands. LOL Only in your own mind! Like most Fundies you can't even get the quotes correct. I said that there were groups in Egypt, Algeria as well as in many Colonies and Mandates. They wanted Independance. If that meant siding with the Axis instead of the Alies, then so be it. Also, those groups were not all Muslim, but also Christian and Hindu. The Vatican also supported the Axis as did Italy. I guess they were part of the great Muslim Conquest as well. This message has been edited by jar, 07-30-2005 09:44 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: The many versus the one
Sorry but there have been Christians and Jews living in those areas all along. Arabia and Jewish or even Christian are not mutually exclusive. In fact the earliest known copy of the Story of Adam & Eve was written in Arabic, later translated into Ethiopian.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Just gets sillier and sillier.
certainly there are Christians living there (the jews were exiled in 1948), but the Christians are in the tiny minority. And which groups were allied with the Axis in 1948?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Just gets sillier and sillier.
My point is that YOUR point was that Muslim Countries aligned with the Nazis. So far the only one you've been able to mention is Iraq. By the way, one of the places my dad served during WWII was the PGC so that area and era has always been of interest to me. When it was pointed out to you that there were other reasons to align with the Axis you then brought up the fact that Jews were exiled in 1948. Since VE day was May 8 th., 1945, I find what happened in 1948 somewhat irrelevant when discussing who aligned themselves with the Axis. Or is this simply yet another attempt to change the subject?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Assumptions vs Conclusions
Christianity believes people must choose to be Christians, or face eternal damnation. Only some Christians hold that belief. Just as in Messianic Islam or Messianic Jewry, there are Messianic Christians but it is not something that all Christians, Jews or Muslims hold as an article of faith.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Assumptions vs Conclusions
Well, I don't think that the NT is clear on that and I've supported that assertion throughout many threads here at EvC. But the fact that there are quite a few Christians here at EvC that do not believe that only Christians can be saved is sufficient to falsify your assertion.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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rather a typical response.
i doubt that there is a number of christians at EvC who dispute my understanding of a required Christian belief in Christ and salvation falsifies my assertion. What does that mean? LOL Do you doubt that there are other Christians here at EvC believe that a belief in in Christ is not required for salvation, or are you saying that the fact that there are Christians that believe that others than Christians can be saved does not falsify your assertion that all Christians believe only Christians can be saved? The idea that Christ died for all mankind is not all that new, certainly dating back to at least the 4 th. Century AD.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: rather a typical response.
re: dropping the LOL; Not really.There's been a consistent pattern throughout this whole thread, you present something and someone posts a rebutal and you respond with some nonsense response such as "Chances are pretty good that they are members of liberal churches, which only in the past generation or two have become liberal and subsequently have altered this theology." Here is one of the translations of the Nicene Creed, compiled in the 4 th. AD.
We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen." Note the bolded area. For us men and for our salvation. No mention there that salvation was only for Christians. AbE: This is straying OT so I will not debate the theology particulars in this thread, but I will point out that there are Christians that do not believe Salvation is only for Christians. This message has been edited by jar, 08-01-2005 08:35 PM
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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