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Author
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Topic: Karl Rove: Traitor?
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 112 of 271 (223913)
07-15-2005 11:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 111 by Silent H
07-15-2005 10:39 AM
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Re: speaking of things owned...
Certainly Rove hasn't been charged with a crime, I don't remember anyone claiming that he was, but not being a "target" is not the same thing as unindictable nonsuspect. All your cited article made clear is that he is not the sole subject or goal of the investigation. Okay.
Let me quote the prosecutor.
Plamegate special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald had told top White House advisor Karl Rove that he's not a target of his investigation into who leaked the identity of CIA analyst Valerie Plame to columnist Robert Novak. And Fitzgerald has also asked the top Bush aide not to discuss the case in public. Karl Rove is not a target. Are we speaking the same language here?
Yeah, that's where Karl may end up getting a little owned himself. So far there doesn't seem to be any corroboration for that besides Gannon, who was a Rep partisan hack and appears to have invented that fiction. He testified under oath. If he's lying, he'll be charged with lying under oath like Bill Clinton.
By the way what was the source for that specific quote (not doubting, just interested). Source Is this supposed to be the 'ol "hey look over there", routine? No one has tried and convicted him, what is happening is some interesting questions have been raised (contrary to Rep whiners Karl was the source of the antiWilson info), and suddenly Bush and Co have gone into deep silence citing rules they had broken previously in order to defend Rove. quote:
Fitzgerald (the prosecutor) has also asked the top Bush aide not to discuss the case in public.
What did Janet Reno tell reporters about the investigation regarding Lewinsky? She told them the white house isn't saying anything until the investigation is complete. That was good enough for the media. But not here! Why, how dare the administration try to cover up what Rove has done! There's no "deep silence." It's the same thing when the white house wouldn't comment on Clinton.
As much as I am for freedom of the press, this does make sense to me. If this was classified info being handled, then she was in the receiving end up classified info. That she would not be willing to divulge where she got classified info would seem like a crime. Would you be happy if a journalist was able to say "I'm protecting my source", when they have talked to a double agent at the CIA working for OBL, who was trying to get classified info on agents out through the media? Indeed we seem to have seen some good effects of this threat as the Rove connection was revealed for sure.
I'll let U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan answer this one for you.
"If she were given a pass today, then the next person could say as a matter of principle, 'I will not obey the law because of the abortion issue,' or the election of a president or whatever. They could claim the moral high ground, and then we could descend into anarchy." Remember, the New York Times asked for this investigation because they thought they had a story about Rove leaking info. What was her source? Why won't she reveal it? If her source was Rove she would have lambasted him by now. So the question here is....who was Judith Miller's source?
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 111 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 10:39 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 114 of 271 (223940)
07-15-2005 2:26 PM
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Reply to: Message 113 by FliesOnly
07-15-2005 11:59 AM
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Re: The Public Flagellation of Lefties
1. The prosecutor has said Rove is not a target of any investigation. It doesn't matter. ROFL! It doesn't matter. I love it.
. Karl Rove released the name as a means of getting back at Wilson Yeah, forget that little thing called proof/evidence.
3. Why did a federal judge send Judith Miller to JAIL for obstruction of justice, which by the way the New York Times called for the investigation? Again, Tal, why does this matter? My stomach can't take much more, I'm about to go run 5 miles. So little things like facts don't matter to you, but pure conjecture without any proof is solid, concrete support for your point? If you want me to speculate on why he sent her to jail, my guess would be that there is a bit of a gray area as to whether or not she is protected by the First Amendment from revealing her source, and the Judge seems to think that she is not. I'll let U.S. District Judge Thomas Hogan answer this one for you.
"If she were given a pass today, then the next person could say as a matter of principle, 'I will not obey the law because of the abortion issue,' or the election of a president or whatever. They could claim the moral high ground, and then we could descend into anarchy." 1. Do you believe that Karl Rove supplied anyone in the media with Plame’s identity? Yes. He said, "I think his wife is in the CIA."
2. If so, are you ok with this? Yes. He didn't blatantly point out her name, indeed he didn't even know it.
3. If sowhyhow...are you not bothered by this? Also, please explain why you think he released her identity to the media? I'll answer with this...
Senators Richard G. Lugar (R-Ind.) and John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) blew the cover of an undercover CIA agent in Senate hearings discussing confirmation of John Bolton's nomination to U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Despite Bolton's repeated referrals to the agent as "Mr. Smith," Kerry and Lugar continued to refer to the agent by his real name. During his unsuccessful 2004 presidential campaign, Mr. Kerry harshly recriminated the Bush Administration for allegedly leaking information about Valerie Plame, a CIA agent whose cover was blown in 2003.
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 113 by FliesOnly, posted 07-15-2005 11:59 AM | | FliesOnly has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 119 of 271 (223948)
07-15-2005 3:41 PM
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Reply to: Message 116 by Silent H
07-15-2005 2:54 PM
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Re: speaking of things owned...
The investigation is not solely focused on Rove. Incorrect. The investigation isn't focused on Rove at all, you are.
IF he did it and it she was covert, THEN should he be arrested? According to the law, if he specifically leaked her name with the intention of outing her thereby blowing her cover, yes. However, what has happened here isn't even close.
If he did it and she wasn't covert, THEN should he still be fired? No. Let me add this.
The wife of Bush-bashing former U.S. ambassador to Iraq, Joe Wilson is apparently not a covert CIA operative or an undercover agent, though she's been described that way repeatedly since the CIA asked for an investigation on how her identity was made public. According to columnist Robert Novak, who revealed Mrs. Wilson's name in his July 14 column, sources at the CIA expressly told him she was not a spy. "According to a confidential source at the CIA, Mrs. Wilson was an analyst, not a spy, not a covert operative, and not in charge of undercover operatives," Novak told his audience on CNN's "Crossfire."
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 116 by Silent H, posted 07-15-2005 2:54 PM | | Silent H has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 130 of 271 (224384)
07-18-2005 9:16 AM
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Reply to: Message 128 by Silent H
07-16-2005 4:03 AM
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Re: Rove backers still firing blanks imho.
It really did not seem likely the CIA was going to warn Novak not to publish her identity, and also initiate a DOJ investigation on a leak, if there was not something serious in play. Bruce Stanford, a First Amendment Attourney was a guest on CNN July 14 2005.
SANFORD: It is worth remembering that when Robert Novak, the columnist, disclosed her identity in his column, he had called the CIA to tell them he was going to do that, and they didn't stop him. They did not do what the CIA normally does in that situation if they want to protect or continue to protect somebody's identity. They didn't call his syndicate. They didn't scream at him and say you're going to endanger danger her life or endanger her career, that sort of thing. They just sort of shrugged and said well, I guess she won't be getting any more overseas assignments. I don't think that's the kind of affirmative measures that the agency needs to be taking in order to invoke this statute.
So Novak did call the CIA and they didn't tell him not to publish her name. And we have this:
What it says is, Karl Rove wasn't the leaker, he was actually the recipient of the information, not the provider, Another nail in the coffin. source So who leaked her name? All roads point Joe Wilson and that poor lady that is rotting in jail for obstruction of justice. This message has been edited by Tal, 07-18-2005 09:20 AM
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 128 by Silent H, posted 07-16-2005 4:03 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 132 of 271 (224409)
07-18-2005 12:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 131 by Silent H
07-18-2005 11:37 AM
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Re: Rove haters have been firing blanks from the get go
I can't believe you are sticking with this. Let's give it a bit and see how it plays out.
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 131 by Silent H, posted 07-18-2005 11:37 AM | | Silent H has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 134 of 271 (224422)
07-18-2005 2:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 133 by Silent H
07-18-2005 1:52 PM
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Re: Rove haters have been firing blanks from the get go
Regardless of how an attorney wants to spin things at this point in time, Novak said they literally told him not to identify her. The idea that the CIA has to add bells and whistles if they really mean it is just nonsense. Source? Here's another rebutal to that from Joe Wilson HIMSELF.
Wilson also said "my wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity." Source My question is why are you trying to continue arguing a case on the basis of patently false issues, when you have one good one?.. as far as legal culpability on IIPA goes. Ok, so there are reporters/sources giving different facts. Obviously some of them are lying. All we can do is wait and see how it plays out. This message has been edited by Tal, 07-18-2005 03:47 PM
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by Silent H, posted 07-18-2005 1:52 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Re: Rove should stay
President Bush was asked if he'd fire anyone involved in the leak and replied that yes, he would. Wrong.
What it doesn’t change is that our President said he would fire anyone involved in the leak, so that is what he should do.
Wrong. It is ok though, because I know why you think this is factual. It is because of the IDIOTS in the press. Here was a question asked by one of these morons yesterday.
"Mr. President, you said you don't want to talk about an ongoing investigation, so I would like to ask you regardless of whether a crime was committed, do you still intend to fire anyone found to be involved in the CIA leak case?" Here are the quotes from President Bush. Sep 30
quote:
If there is a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is. And, if the person has violated law, that person will be taken care of.
Bush a couple of days ago
quote:
And if someone committed a crime they will no longer work in my administration.
Hey MR REPORTER! Why can I do your job better than you can? Is it that you simply can't interpret english? Flies, Care to adjust your statements to reflect the truth yet? This message has been edited by Tal, 07-20-2005 10:18 AM
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by FliesOnly, posted 07-19-2005 3:15 PM | | FliesOnly has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 158 of 271 (225057)
07-21-2005 6:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 157 by berberry
07-20-2005 11:08 PM
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Re: Dems: What....? Rove's not dead yet? "We got the rope right here!"
Because either Rove lied alone, or he and Bush both lied. Either way, Rove's a liar. No question about it. He's said directly that he was not involved in the leaking of Valerie Plame. You can parse the words all you want, but any thinking person knows now that Rove intended to mislead, which is what you do when you lie. ROFL! How about that tincy, wincy thing called proof? Innocent until proven guilty? He testified before a Grand Jury under oath. If he lied, we will know about it, like Bill Clinton.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 157 by berberry, posted 07-20-2005 11:08 PM | | berberry has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Re: Dems: What....? Rove's not dead yet? "We got the rope right here!"
i think a lie about outing a cia operative is a little more serious than a lie about where you put little willie jr. would agree to that, if he's proven guilty? 100% correct! If Clinton was held in contempt and disbarred for this tiny crime, why, Rove's punishment will be much more severe if he leaked the name. Time will tell. Actually time already has told. Its simply a matter of when you wish to recognize it. This message has been edited by Tal, 07-21-2005 07:59 AM
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 162 of 271 (225089)
07-21-2005 9:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 161 by berberry
07-21-2005 9:31 AM
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Re: Rove's gossip and Bush's low moral standards
If, like the president, you only care whether a crime was committed then we will have to wait for proof, but like I've said earlier I'm not looking for Rove to be convicted of a crime. Which is good for him since the president has such appallingly low ethical and moral standards that all he requires of his employees is that they remain unconvicted of any crimes. Again, you DO NOT KNOW if Rove leaked a name!!!!! All you have is an accusation. We do know he's testified under oath that he didn't. If its found otherwise, he's busted.
But my point was, and you already knew this, that we know beyond question that Rove lied. Two years ago, Scott McLellan said he had spoken with Rove and that Rove assured him that he wasn't involved in the Plame leak. There is now no question that Rove was indeed involved, so either Rove is a liar or McLellan is a liar. Rove's best defense so far is that he was just spreading gossip about a CIA agent. How so? Give me the specific quotes.
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 161 by berberry, posted 07-21-2005 9:31 AM | | berberry has replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Re: Rove's gossip and Bush's low moral standards
and we're talk professional spies, and wives of high-profile diplomats here.
Yet, Wilson said "my wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity." She hadn't been covert for 7 years. Got something else?
it's not the NAME that matters; it's the identity So why aren't you after Novak? Why is a New York times reporter sitting in Jail again?
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Now we are going to argue over what the definition of is is? Again, Novak called the CIA and they didn't tell him not to print her name. She wasn't clandestine, secret, undercover, or any other term you think you can use. Joe Wilson named his own wife on his own website. Joe Wilson is the leaker! I know your response to this, "But Tal, Joe Wilson didn't say, she's an undercover CIA agent." Neither did Karl Rove. He said, "I think she worked for the CIA." And again
Chief presidential adviser Karl Rove testified to a grand jury that he talked with two journalists before they divulged the identity of a CIA officer but that he originally learned about the operative from the news media and not government sources CNN since you somehow won't believe anything Fox says That is cut and dry. This message has been edited by Tal, 07-21-2005 01:28 PM
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
and you actually trust the cia? they're hardly exemplar of good christian morality, like karl rove, who never lies. Off Topic. Please do not respond to this post This message has been edited by AdminJar, 07-22-2005 02:40 PM
I helped scare an old person-I stopped someone from keeping more of their money-So what if people want to have say in the places they live and the cars that they drive-I gave money to an environmental group that helped keep us dependant on foreign oil-I help the enemies of democracy get stronger by telling them laws don’t matter-What if one day I need an abortion-Sex with an intern, everybody does it-I help teach kids around America that America is always wrong Do you know what your DNC stands for?
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 199 of 271 (228493)
08-01-2005 1:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 198 by berberry
07-28-2005 3:00 AM
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Re: Can you believe: Congress to hold hearings!
These people are disgusting. Worse than Nixon, by far. How so? Can you compare/contrast the illegal activities of Nixon to Bush?
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?" --Ann Coulter
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 198 by berberry, posted 07-28-2005 3:00 AM | | berberry has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 200 by berberry, posted 08-01-2005 5:39 PM | | Tal has not replied |
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Tal
Member (Idle past 5706 days) Posts: 1140 From: Fort Bragg, NC Joined: 12-29-2004
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Message 210 of 271 (229115)
08-03-2005 10:05 AM
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Reply to: Message 208 by FliesOnly
08-03-2005 8:59 AM
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Re: covert and clandestine are not the same
Not true. He was told NOT to release her name...he just felt that they (the CIA) didn't say it "loudly" enough. Source?
For once you are correct. Karl Rove leaked classified info, which is a crime, and he should first be fired by President Bush and then put on trial. It's cut and dry. Evidence?
"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?" --Ann Coulter
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 208 by FliesOnly, posted 08-03-2005 8:59 AM | | FliesOnly has replied |
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