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Author Topic:   Crop circles and intelligent design
Annafan
Member (Idle past 2810 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 16 of 149 (231303)
08-09-2005 10:21 AM


An interesting angle... Digging it up again because I think I can add something.

My first thought was something others have already mentioned: the "created by an intelligence" hypothesis simply makes much more sense for crop-circles because we can readily identify good candidates for this "intelligence": human pranksters. They are around in abundance, they have the (proven) ability to create circles and the (proven) tendency to create pranks. We do not have as easily an "intelligence" candidate available for something that looks like biological design.

Secondly, and I haven't seen this pointed out, the "intelligence" that is being displayed in cropcircles is different from apparent intelligence in biological systems in that it is "non-functional". Crop-"circles" are intriguing because they show geometric regularity, but this fact and its complexity have no identifiable "purpose". This while the reason for claiming ID lies in the observation that everything "works so well together". That there seems to be "purpose", "intent" behind it all. And also that it "couldn't have been much different". There is no such requirement for crop-circles. A completely irregular cropcircle is just as viable and possible as one that shows a complex fractal. The property that makes it look like it was created by an "intelligence" is not necessary. Or still expressed in another way: its "design" stands completely on its own. It is not intertwined with the environment, guided by the circumstances in which the crop-circle exists. It doesn't have to respond to pressures of any kind, it doesn't have to fit into constraints. Well, this idea is actually harder to express than I thought, lol I hope you get what I mean.


Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 149 (231550)
08-09-2005 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Annafan
08-09-2005 10:21 AM


Great Post
Nominated for a Post of the Month.
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 18 of 149 (231579)
08-09-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aximili23
01-25-2005 10:17 PM


personal bias
just personal bias based entirely on subjective feelings
This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 19 of 149 (231583)
08-09-2005 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Aximili23
01-26-2005 3:29 AM


you hit on a good point
Science is limited by technology.

Imo, therefore the axiom that a new paradigm must come along to replace the old paradigm, before we determine the old is wrong, is false, and leads to ignoring unexplained data and trying to fit it into an old paradigm, which is also wrong and unscientific.

Good science should therefore not dismiss any hypothesis based on a a lack of technological ability to measure and determine if it is true because if it does, there is a high likelihood of drawing false conclusions.


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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3130 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 20 of 149 (231589)
08-09-2005 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by PecosGeorge
01-26-2005 4:16 PM


some are hoaxes
Some crop circles have been discovered to be hoaxes, but the people researching this stuff claim some others do not appear to be. Frankly, I have no idea, but it would not surprise me if some crop circles appeared that were not hoaxes, and then people got into the act and started using the phenomena to create hoaxes.

That's happened with UFOs. There are extremely credible UFO reports such as the 1947 appearance of UFOs visually and on radar over DC which resulted in multiple scrambling of jets. But there have been hoaxes too, probably once the idea got out and some pranksters wanted to have a little fun.

Of course, the thousands of people that witnesses the UFOs over Washington and the military scrambling jets to intercept, the pilots first-hand reports, and the radar signals were not hoaxes.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 21 of 149 (231683)
08-09-2005 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
08-09-2005 6:31 PM


Re: some are hoaxes
It never ceases to amaze me what some people will and won't believe.

UFO's? "Sure!"
Paranormal powers? "Absolutely!"
Ghosts and haunted houses? "Beyond a doubt!"
Government conspiracies? "The truth is out there!"

The scientifically mainstream position, supported by the evidence, that natural processes suffice to account for all life on Earth, including us? "Woah, hang on there. Isn't that a little far-fetched?"

There's no sense to it.


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Annafan
Member (Idle past 2810 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 22 of 149 (231777)
08-10-2005 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by randman
08-09-2005 6:20 PM


Re: personal bias
just personal bias based entirely on subjective feelings

Well, possibly... But you'll have to give a better explanation of some sort before I can try to respond. So please, expand a little.. :)


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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 149 (231784)
08-10-2005 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by crashfrog
08-09-2005 10:56 PM


Re: some are hoaxes
It never ceases to amaze me what some people will and won't believe.

It's the attraction of the mysterious and the romantic--a very underrated human motivation.


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Annafan
Member (Idle past 2810 days)
Posts: 418
From: Belgium
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 24 of 149 (232270)
08-11-2005 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by randman
08-09-2005 6:20 PM


Re: personal bias
just personal bias based entirely on subjective feelings

Again, could you be more specific?

What is there biased? Where are the subjective feelings? You should be able to point them out.


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tsig
Member (Idle past 1140 days)
Posts: 738
From: USA
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 25 of 149 (232820)
08-12-2005 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
08-09-2005 6:31 PM


Appeal to athourity?
Some crop circles have been discovered to be hoaxes, but the people researching this stuff claim some others do not appear to be

Who are these researchers?


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ramoss
Member
Posts: 3113
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 26 of 149 (232823)
08-12-2005 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by randman
08-09-2005 6:31 PM


Re: some are hoaxes
RIIIIGHT.

If it can be shown that many (not just some) crop circles have been created by human hands, why should we accept that there might be some from little green men from outer space?

A very mundane explaination has been found. You need really really good evidence to show that something other than man has created any.

So far, the evidence for that is zero.


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Peter
Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 27 of 149 (233324)
08-15-2005 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by sidelined
01-29-2005 12:17 AM


Re: E,T.'s and crop circles.Imagine that!
Just 'cause our technology is so backward what makes you
think any other life in the universe will be?

The universe is way older than earth so it would seem that
the possibility for more ancient life than we know of
is out there.

As far as crop circles go ... maybe it's alien pranskters :)


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Peter
Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 28 of 149 (615452)
05-13-2011 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by PecosGeorge
01-26-2005 4:16 PM


Just curious about the basis for your statement that there are no ET's.

Given the size and age of the universe I would find it more extraordinary that we are alone than not.

JUST NOTICED THE AGE OF THIS POST AND THE LACK OF RESPONSE TO MY LAST POST

Edited by Peter, : No reason given.


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frako
Member
Posts: 2814
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 29 of 149 (615457)
05-13-2011 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aximili23
01-25-2005 10:17 PM


the cause of which we have not always fully observed and therefore do not fully understand, and yet we can seem to agree that an unknown intelligence has guided this process. And this conclusion does not seem to be criticized as being unscientific.

Actualy it has been observed
It was tested by means of a wooden plank some rope and some geometry skills crop circles where made that where identical to the ones seen
And it is the most logical explanation that accounts for all the facts and all the evidence.

So it is scientific to say an intelligent human with a rope and some geometry skills and a wooden plank made the circles.


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Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 2154 days)
Posts: 2160
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 30 of 149 (615740)
05-16-2011 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Aximili23
01-25-2005 10:17 PM


The difference between crop circles and ID
Isn't the difference incredibly simple:

We conclude that crop circles are designed because they do not appear to conform to something which would be produced by natural mechanisms.

i.e. our 'measure' of intelligent design for Crop Circles is that they do NOT look like anything usually found in nature.

We use 'biological systems', 'weather systems', geological systems' etc. as a criterion for determining design by ruling them out as potential causes.

Can't do that with ID ... since it has concluded that biological systems WERE designed and so we cannot use them as a metric for design any more.


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