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Author | Topic: Crop circles and intelligent design | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Annafan Member (Idle past 4608 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
An interesting angle... Digging it up again because I think I can add something.
My first thought was something others have already mentioned: the "created by an intelligence" hypothesis simply makes much more sense for crop-circles because we can readily identify good candidates for this "intelligence": human pranksters. They are around in abundance, they have the (proven) ability to create circles and the (proven) tendency to create pranks. We do not have as easily an "intelligence" candidate available for something that looks like biological design. Secondly, and I haven't seen this pointed out, the "intelligence" that is being displayed in cropcircles is different from apparent intelligence in biological systems in that it is "non-functional". Crop-"circles" are intriguing because they show geometric regularity, but this fact and its complexity have no identifiable "purpose". This while the reason for claiming ID lies in the observation that everything "works so well together". That there seems to be "purpose", "intent" behind it all. And also that it "couldn't have been much different". There is no such requirement for crop-circles. A completely irregular cropcircle is just as viable and possible as one that shows a complex fractal. The property that makes it look like it was created by an "intelligence" is not necessary. Or still expressed in another way: its "design" stands completely on its own. It is not intertwined with the environment, guided by the circumstances in which the crop-circle exists. It doesn't have to respond to pressures of any kind, it doesn't have to fit into constraints. Well, this idea is actually harder to express than I thought, lol I hope you get what I mean.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Nominated for a Post of the Month.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
just personal bias based entirely on subjective feelings
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Science is limited by technology.
Imo, therefore the axiom that a new paradigm must come along to replace the old paradigm, before we determine the old is wrong, is false, and leads to ignoring unexplained data and trying to fit it into an old paradigm, which is also wrong and unscientific. Good science should therefore not dismiss any hypothesis based on a a lack of technological ability to measure and determine if it is true because if it does, there is a high likelihood of drawing false conclusions.
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randman  Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: |
Some crop circles have been discovered to be hoaxes, but the people researching this stuff claim some others do not appear to be. Frankly, I have no idea, but it would not surprise me if some crop circles appeared that were not hoaxes, and then people got into the act and started using the phenomena to create hoaxes.
That's happened with UFOs. There are extremely credible UFO reports such as the 1947 appearance of UFOs visually and on radar over DC which resulted in multiple scrambling of jets. But there have been hoaxes too, probably once the idea got out and some pranksters wanted to have a little fun. Of course, the thousands of people that witnesses the UFOs over Washington and the military scrambling jets to intercept, the pilots first-hand reports, and the radar signals were not hoaxes.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined:
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It never ceases to amaze me what some people will and won't believe.
UFO's? "Sure!"Paranormal powers? "Absolutely!" Ghosts and haunted houses? "Beyond a doubt!" Government conspiracies? "The truth is out there!" The scientifically mainstream position, supported by the evidence, that natural processes suffice to account for all life on Earth, including us? "Woah, hang on there. Isn't that a little far-fetched?" There's no sense to it.
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Annafan Member (Idle past 4608 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
just personal bias based entirely on subjective feelings Well, possibly... But you'll have to give a better explanation of some sort before I can try to respond. So please, expand a little..
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robinrohan Inactive Member |
It never ceases to amaze me what some people will and won't believe. It's the attraction of the mysterious and the romantic--a very underrated human motivation.
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Annafan Member (Idle past 4608 days) Posts: 418 From: Belgium Joined: |
just personal bias based entirely on subjective feelings Again, could you be more specific? What is there biased? Where are the subjective feelings? You should be able to point them out.
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tsig Member (Idle past 2938 days) Posts: 738 From: USA Joined: |
Some crop circles have been discovered to be hoaxes, but the people researching this stuff claim some others do not appear to be Who are these researchers?
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ramoss Member (Idle past 641 days) Posts: 3228 Joined: |
RIIIIGHT.
If it can be shown that many (not just some) crop circles have been created by human hands, why should we accept that there might be some from little green men from outer space? A very mundane explaination has been found. You need really really good evidence to show that something other than man has created any. So far, the evidence for that is zero.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1508 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Just 'cause our technology is so backward what makes you
think any other life in the universe will be? The universe is way older than earth so it would seem thatthe possibility for more ancient life than we know of is out there. As far as crop circles go ... maybe it's alien pranskters
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Peter Member (Idle past 1508 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Just curious about the basis for your statement that there are no ET's.
Given the size and age of the universe I would find it more extraordinary that we are alone than not. JUST NOTICED THE AGE OF THIS POST AND THE LACK OF RESPONSE TO MY LAST POST Edited by Peter, : No reason given.
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frako Member (Idle past 335 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
the cause of which we have not always fully observed and therefore do not fully understand, and yet we can seem to agree that an unknown intelligence has guided this process. And this conclusion does not seem to be criticized as being unscientific. Actualy it has been observedIt was tested by means of a wooden plank some rope and some geometry skills crop circles where made that where identical to the ones seen And it is the most logical explanation that accounts for all the facts and all the evidence. So it is scientific to say an intelligent human with a rope and some geometry skills and a wooden plank made the circles.
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Peter Member (Idle past 1508 days) Posts: 2161 From: Cambridgeshire, UK. Joined: |
Isn't the difference incredibly simple:
We conclude that crop circles are designed because they do not appear to conform to something which would be produced by natural mechanisms. i.e. our 'measure' of intelligent design for Crop Circles is that they do NOT look like anything usually found in nature. We use 'biological systems', 'weather systems', geological systems' etc. as a criterion for determining design by ruling them out as potential causes. Can't do that with ID ... since it has concluded that biological systems WERE designed and so we cannot use them as a metric for design any more.
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