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Author | Topic: For Wolf - Prophecy, Coincidence, or Made Up? | |||||||||||||||||||
jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Most of those are simply quote mining taken out of context.
Begin with Zechariah 9. If you look at the whole thing, any connection with Jesus disappears. Zechariah 9:
Zechariah 9 Judgment on Israel's Enemies An Oracle 1 The word of the LORD is against the land of Hadrach and will rest upon Damascus for the eyes of men and all the tribes of Israel are on the LORD[a] 2 and upon Hamath too, which borders on it,and upon Tyre and Sidon, though they are very skillful. 3 Tyre has built herself a stronghold;she has heaped up silver like dust, and gold like the dirt of the streets. 4 But the Lord will take away her possessionsand destroy her power on the sea, and she will be consumed by fire. 5 Ashkelon will see it and fear;Gaza will writhe in agony, and Ekron too, for her hope will wither. Gaza will lose her king and Ashkelon will be deserted. 6 Foreigners will occupy Ashdod,and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines. 7 I will take the blood from their mouths,the forbidden food from between their teeth. Those who are left will belong to our God and become leaders in Judah, and Ekron will be like the Jebusites. 8 But I will defend my houseagainst marauding forces. Never again will an oppressor overrun my people, for now I am keeping watch. The Coming of Zion's King 9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king [ b] comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. 10 I will take away the chariots from Ephraimand the war-horses from Jerusalem, and the battle bow will be broken. He will proclaim peace to the nations. His rule will extend from sea to sea and from the River [c] to the ends of the earth. [d] 11 As for you, because of the blood of my covenant with you,I will free your prisoners from the waterless pit. 12 Return to your fortress, O prisoners of hope;even now I announce that I will restore twice as much to you. 13 I will bend Judah as I bend my bowand fill it with Ephraim. I will rouse your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and make you like a warrior's sword. The LORD Will Appear 14 Then the LORD will appear over them; his arrow will flash like lightning. The Sovereign LORD will sound the trumpet; he will march in the storms of the south, 15 and the LORD Almighty will shield them.They will destroy and overcome with slingstones. They will drink and roar as with wine; they will be full like a bowl used for sprinkling [e] the corners of the altar. 16 The LORD their God will save them on that dayas the flock of his people. They will sparkle in his land like jewels in a crown. 17 How attractive and beautiful they will be!Grain will make the young men thrive, and new wine the young women. Even the heading in your own source identifies it as a Judgement on Israel's enemies. Once we reach agreement on this chapter we can move on to the rest. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
let's look at the second claimed prophecy. Tal claims that Micah5:2 is a prophecy that Jesus will be born in Bethlehem.
Unfortuantely, if you read Micah 5 it doesn't say that. Istead it prdicts that a Military leader will come from the Clan (not the city) of Bethelehem. That ruler will be one that conquers Assyria by the sword, a war lord and certyainly not a character like Jesus. So the score is two prophecies claimed, neither supported. Micah 5:
A Promised Ruler From Bethlehem 1 Marshal your troops, O city of troops, [a] for a siege is laid against us. They will strike Israel's ruler on the cheek with a rod. 2 "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,though you are small among the clans [ b] of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins [c] are from of old, from ancient times. [d] " 3 Therefore Israel will be abandoneduntil the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites. 4 He will stand and shepherd his flockin the strength of the LORD, in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God. And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach to the ends of the earth. 5 And he will be their peace. Deliverance and DestructionWhen the Assyrian invades our land and marches through our fortresses, we will raise against him seven shepherds, even eight leaders of men. 6 They will rule [e] the land of Assyria with the sword,the land of Nimrod with drawn sword. [f] He will deliver us from the Assyrian when he invades our land and marches into our borders. 7 The remnant of Jacob will bein the midst of many peoples like dew from the LORD, like showers on the grass, which do not wait for man or linger for mankind. 8 The remnant of Jacob will be among the nations,in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of the forest, like a young lion among flocks of sheep, which mauls and mangles as it goes, and no one can rescue. 9 Your hand will be lifted up in triumph over your enemies,and all your foes will be destroyed. 10 "In that day," declares the LORD,"I will destroy your horses from among you and demolish your chariots. 11 I will destroy the cities of your landand tear down all your strongholds. 12 I will destroy your witchcraftand you will no longer cast spells. 13 I will destroy your carved imagesand your sacred stones from among you; you will no longer bow down to the work of your hands. 14 I will uproot from among you your Asherah poles [g]and demolish your cities. 15 I will take vengeance in anger and wrathupon the nations that have not obeyed me." Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Tal, you have a habit of posting incorrect and inaccurate cut&paste jobs, then when they are challenged you simply wander off to spam some other thread.
You started this thread. I responded to your OP. I have shown that the first two prophecies you quoted were incorrect. Let's look at number three and number 4. You claim "Be hated without cause Isaiah 49:7 and Psalms 69:4" Is Isaiah 49 about Jesus? Look at the final verse.
26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh; they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine. Then all mankind will know that I, the LORD, am your Savior, your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob." Does that sound like Jesus? Not in my opinion. Isaiah 49 is a lament in exile and a predition that Israel will rise again. Psalm 69 is also a general lament. Here it is in its entirety.
Psalm 69 For the director of music. To the tune of "Lilies." Of David. 1 Save me, O God, for the waters have come up to my neck. 2 I sink in the miry depths,where there is no foothold. I have come into the deep waters; the floods engulf me. 3 I am worn out calling for help;my throat is parched. My eyes fail, looking for my God. 4 Those who hate me without reasonoutnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. 5 You know my folly, O God;my guilt is not hidden from you. 6 May those who hope in younot be disgraced because of me, O Lord, the LORD Almighty; may those who seek you not be put to shame because of me, O God of Israel. 7 For I endure scorn for your sake,and shame covers my face. 8 I am a stranger to my brothers,an alien to my own mother's sons; 9 for zeal for your house consumes me,and the insults of those who insult you fall on me. 10 When I weep and fast,I must endure scorn; 11 when I put on sackcloth,people make sport of me. 12 Those who sit at the gate mock me,and I am the song of the drunkards. 13 But I pray to you, O LORD,in the time of your favor; in your great love, O God, answer me with your sure salvation. 14 Rescue me from the mire,do not let me sink; deliver me from those who hate me, from the deep waters. 15 Do not let the floodwaters engulf meor the depths swallow me up or the pit close its mouth over me. 16 Answer me, O LORD, out of the goodness of your love;in your great mercy turn to me. 17 Do not hide your face from your servant;answer me quickly, for I am in trouble. 18 Come near and rescue me;redeem me because of my foes. 19 You know how I am scorned, disgraced and shamed;all my enemies are before you. 20 Scorn has broken my heartand has left me helpless; I looked for sympathy, but there was none, for comforters, but I found none. 21 They put gall in my foodand gave me vinegar for my thirst. 22 May the table set before them become a snare;may it become retribution and [a] a trap. 23 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,and their backs be bent forever. 24 Pour out your wrath on them;let your fierce anger overtake them. 25 May their place be deserted;let there be no one to dwell in their tents. 26 For they persecute those you woundand talk about the pain of those you hurt. 27 Charge them with crime upon crime;do not let them share in your salvation. 28 May they be blotted out of the book of lifeand not be listed with the righteous. 29 I am in pain and distress;may your salvation, O God, protect me. 30 I will praise God's name in songand glorify him with thanksgiving. 31 This will please the LORD more than an ox,more than a bull with its horns and hoofs. 32 The poor will see and be gladyou who seek God, may your hearts live! 33 The LORD hears the needyand does not despise his captive people. 34 Let heaven and earth praise him,the seas and all that move in them, 35 for God will save Zionand rebuild the cities of Judah. Then people will settle there and possess it; 36 the children of his servants will inherit it,and those who love his name will dwell there. So as it stands right now, four alleged prophecies examined and none stand up to scrutiny. This message has been edited by jar, 08-10-2005 10:06 AM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Example 5 is easy. It's simply more quotemining from Psalm 69 which we have already seen is not prophecy.
Number six is Pslam 49. Let's take a look at it and see what we find.
1 Blessed is he who has regard for the weak; the LORD delivers him in times of trouble. 2 The LORD will protect him and preserve his life;he will bless him in the land and not surrender him to the desire of his foes. 3 The LORD will sustain him on his sickbedand restore him from his bed of illness. 4 I said, "O LORD, have mercy on me;heal me, for I have sinned against you." 5 My enemies say of me in malice,"When will he die and his name perish?" 6 Whenever one comes to see me,he speaks falsely, while his heart gathers slander; then he goes out and spreads it abroad. 7 All my enemies whisper together against me;they imagine the worst for me, saying, 8 "A vile disease has beset him;he will never get up from the place where he lies." 9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted,he who shared my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. 10 But you, O LORD, have mercy on me;raise me up, that I may repay them. 11 I know that you are pleased with me,for my enemy does not triumph over me. 12 In my integrity you uphold meand set me in your presence forever. 13 Praise be to the LORD, the God of Israel,from everlasting to everlasting. Amen and Amen. WOW!. More out of context quotemining. Surprise. When you read the whole Psalm it's not prophecy but simply a general song of praise and lament. The very two first verses;
1 Blessed is he who has regard for the weak; the LORD delivers him in times of trouble. 2 The LORD will protect him and preserve his life;he will bless him in the land and not surrender him to the desire of his foes. show that it cannot be attached to Jesus whose life was not preserved and who was surrendered to his foes and was not delivered in time of trouble. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
We don't need to know what your Pastor thinks, if he thought the items you included in the OP were prophecy he was wrong.
We don't need yet more cut&paste jobs from some sermon transcript, we get enough of that from you already. In your OP you listed five factors,
1. Authorship 2. Manuscripts 3. History 4. Archeology 5. Prophecy Before we go on to 1-4, how about your dealing with the one where you provided some alleged evidence. Is there any prophecy you can defend? The first six have been shown to be wrong, is it necessary to go through the whole list? Let's not play run away and jump to 1-4 without first settling number 5. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I don't have to defend any of them. Yes you do. That is why we're in the Science Forum, this is not the Coffee House. Your assertions that they are prophecy has been challenged and supporting material provided. It's now up to you to either supprot the assertion or retract them.
They aren't wrong. You see them as coincidence. What's the problem? No, it did not say they were coincidences. I said they were deliberate QuoteMining, taken out of context and used to support some other conclusion than could be supported if they were taken within context. That is not coincidence. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
Here Tal's source claims again that the prophecy is about Jesus. He lists two verses from Zachariah
The first one does not mention anything about betrayal, and the second one does not mention buying anything. Again, let's look at Zachariah 11 in full.
Zechariah 11 1 Open your doors, O Lebanon,so that fire may devour your cedars! 2 Wail, O pine tree, for the cedar has fallen;the stately trees are ruined! Wail, oaks of Bashan; the dense forest has been cut down! 3 Listen to the wail of the shepherds;their rich pastures are destroyed! Listen to the roar of the lions; the lush thicket of the Jordan is ruined! Two Shepherds 4 This is what the LORD my God says: "Pasture the flock marked for slaughter. 5 Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, 'Praise the LORD, I am rich!' Their own shepherds do not spare them. 6 For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land," declares the LORD. "I will hand everyone over to his neighbor and his king. They will oppress the land, and I will not rescue them from their hands." 7 So I pastured the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I pastured the flock. 8 In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them 9 and said, "I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another's flesh." 10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. 11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the LORD. 12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. 13 And the LORD said to me, "Throw it to the potter"-the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD to the potter. 14 Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the brotherhood between Judah and Israel. 15 Then the LORD said to me, "Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs. 17 "Woe to the worthless shepherd,who deserts the flock! May the sword strike his arm and his right eye! May his arm be completely withered, his right eye totally blinded!" Reading the whole Chapter we can see that it is definitely not prophecy of Jesus unless Jesus is a despot out to kill the weak and children. Anyone who uses Zachariah 11 as a prophecy of Jesus must also explain verse 16, which says:
16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hoofs. That is certainly not someone who would say "Suffer the little children to come unto me", who healed the sick, made the lame whole and fed the multitudes. Instead, Zachariah 11 is a comment and condemnation on the breakup of the two kingdoms. So looking at the first eight examples of the cut&paste OP we find that not one of the original quotations is a valid prophecy. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
"In your opinion" is not a sufficient rebuttal.
I have presented each of the first eight alleged prophecies in you OP. I have also presented the context in which they are found and specific reasons that each one is not prophecy but after the fact quotemining. You are requested to either support your assertion or to withdraw it. Once that is done we can look at the rest of the prophecies in your OP or alternatively, if there happens to be one in particular you believe can be supported, we will look at it. IMHO Christianity is a wonderful religion and has much to offer. It is diminished however by Pastors that simply don't know what they are talking about. Claims such as those laid out in the OP do nothing but diminish the worth and credibility of Christianity. It's time for Christians to quit dealing with nonsense Proofs and to begin living the live of Christ. The message is simple and requires no prophecy for support. Love GOD and love others as you love yourself. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
I know of three rulers named Darius in Persian History, Darius I around 522 BC, Darius second that lived around 424 BC and Darius III that live around 380-330 BC. None of them are identified as Darius the son of Ahasuerus.
Now Daniel 9 identifies the period for the arival of the Annointed One as coming 69 (in one place) 25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. or 70 (in another place) 24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [e] weeks afterwards. Which of the Darius characters was the one that lived 69 or 70 weeks before Jesus? AbE: edited to fix subtitle. This message has been edited by jar, 08-11-2005 04:33 PM Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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