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Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Department Of Homeland Security Inaction At the Top | |||||||||||||||||||||||
gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: According to a previously cited quote from WikiPedia, the levees were breached at 11 AM on Monday morning. Are you trying to say that the evacuation would have been postponed that late?
quote: The key words are after a certain point. You continue to needlessly insist that the evacuation buses would not have left New Orleans until the storm was already on top of the city. That's a needless assumption that you still have not justified. I have no need to rethink the point when you insist on resorting to logical fallacies (begging the question).
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: How much debris was in the road, what was the current storm surge level, and how sound were the bridges? How many thousands of pounds of supply did you bring? How many hundreds of soldiers did you need to get into your convoy? And how long did it take the governor to give you orders? I bet your vacations are more interesting than mine.
quote: Sorry, but three to five days is the standard response time, and has been for years.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Yes, I did. I did not specify the time at which the evacuation buses would have left the city. You are assuming that they left immediately before the roads were closed. Why, I do not know.
quote: The fact that there was nobody still on the road at that time proves that everybody was able to get out. You need to show that if we added 500 buses, everybody would not be able to get out. You keep insisting over and over again to the point of absurdity that no, they couldn't all get out, but you haven't done anything to substantiate.
quote: And blaming Bush will make it better for the victims? Come on, you know you're making political hay. This has nothing to do with the victims, does it? This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 11:08 PM
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: No, when Blanco and Nagin are thinking about it's not an easy task. When FEMA does it suddenly they are grossly incompetent for taking longer than a day. Be consistent.
quote: My assertion isn't "ridiculous": load people on buses and send them out of the city. You haven't shown why it can't be done, instead you have this idea, obviously pulled from thin air, that it would clog the interstates and they couldn't make it out. I'm waiting on you to show that that's the case.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: No, but 500 buses can do it before. Do you not see how absurd Crashfrog is in saying that just because he can drive to New Orleans in six hours under normal conditions that National Guard should do the same after the largest national disaster in American history? Are you getting enough oxygen over there?
quote: The buses could have left before the hurricane and it wouldn't have been a problem. Second of all, when a hurricane is coming at you at 15-30 MPH, outrunning it is feasible. If I were in New Orleans, and had the proper permit, I would have volunteered to drive one of the buses. There is no reasonable doubt that those buses could not have gotten out of New Orleans like the the other hundreds of thousands that drove themselves out. It is a non-issue. And you have utterly failed to substantiate your opposition to it. This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 11:20 PM
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: And why do the buses have to wait until during the hurricane to leave?
quote: Look, there is little thing called 'burden of proof'. Normally the person making an affirmative statement is required to support that statement. You have said over and over again that evacuation buses would cause there to still be traffic when the storm hit. I'm still waiting on you to support that assumption.
quote: Well, that's a good idea. I bet you have others, too. Why don't you elaborate on it further rather than wasting my time with strawmen. Seriously, I am interested in what better solutions there might have been--including those that don't involve driving people out of the city. And it could get this discussion back on track That could be more interest than having to remind you every single time that you are building strawmen and begging the question. I don't think I'm ever going to hear a justification for that.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: If you called them up 24-48 hours before the major catastrophe. What was Katrina's strength 48 hours before landfall? Second of all, you have forgotten that prepositioning assets in the disaster area before the disaster endangers those assets. I don't see how sending in the guard beforehand would be more ethical than forcing police and paramedics to go into the mandatory evacuation zone at the height of the storm. Despite that, I distinctly remember the Guard being in New Orleans, seeing as how they were the ones running the Superdome operation, at least the weapons checks.
quote: I think it's obvious that the Guard could've gotten in prior to the storm, were it possible to do so on such short notice *and* considered a wise and ethical use of resources.
quote: Yeah. Military helicopters were rescuing people Tuesday afternoon. In fact, by now they have rescued 30,000 people. But the presence of helicopters (and more to the point, an airport out of which you can fly C-130s) doesn't help you mobilize any faster, it just reduces travel time.
quote: Sure it is, since there would have been no danger.
quote: I have to agree.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: To answer my own question, it was a Category 3 aimed at somewhere between about Morgan City and the Pearl River. Where are you going to send those troops, and how many? What if it pulls an Ivan? Hurricane KATRINA? This message has been edited by gene90, 09-14-2005 11:49 PM
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Right. And I did the math based on the number of buses making an assumption about seating capacity. You said that it wouldn't work because the roads would be clogged. That was an affirmative assumption you have not supported.
quote: Except it's not ridiculous because you can easily outdrive a hurricane and that far out road conditions are tenable. Further, the fact that there were no cars on the road is evidence that everybody had had plenty of time to get out. That means that if the buses had left earlier, there is no reason to think that they would somehow "clog the roads" like you insist they would, again, without justification. By the way, saying some is "ridiculous" over and over again does not support an argument. You're boring me.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: But she did not ask for Federal troops until that Wednesday. As was already established, standard procedure is for the governor to ask the president to dispatch troops. By the way, this is 11 PM Aug 26 advisory for Hurricane Katrina
quote: So it's going to be an "intense" hurricane (4 or higher) and it's forecast to hit Louisiana but that's days away. Last year there was a similar scare for New Orleans with Ivan and nothing came of it. Lili did the same thing before that. Georges did it. So, are you going to mobilize tens of thousands of national guardsmen every time a hurricane enters the gulf? And how are you going to decide where to send the Guard three days before landfall? This message has been edited by gene90, 09-15-2005 12:13 AM
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: In that case, I think we are "mostly" in agreement, since that what most of this has been about.
quote: That's fair, but I think it applies to local, State, and Federal agencies.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Right. I may be on the other side of the political spectrum but I agree that there are some problems here. There needs a bipartisan investigation of this for one. I don't even like the look of the President being in complete control of whatever inquiry there is going to be.
quote: I don't have one that will suffice, I'm simply remembering the news coverage (FOX, CNN, and State public radio, which was going into disaster mode). I believe that was coverage from CNN, but I realize it isn't sufficient. Apologies then for using it.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Yeah, that about does it.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Well, for that much there needs a be culling of FEMA leadership.
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gene90 Member (Idle past 3853 days) Posts: 1610 Joined: |
quote: Well, I don't see the point of arguing what the letter says when the letter is right here: 404
quote: Right, she is asking for "protective measures" and "direct Federal assistance". Next paragraph:
quote: Enclosure A:
quote: Now, to be fair, Katrina was a Category 3 hurricane when she wrote this, and the lanfall location was not known with any certainty.
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