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Author | Topic: What if God foreknew human reactions? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
WTF?
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: I mean, can he allow himself to not know which path you're gonna choose so that he's giving you free will? Foreknowledge itself is irrelevant. It's merely an indicator of the nature of the future, and it's the nature of the future that determines if there's choice.A set future allows for foreknowledge, and doesn't allow for choice; as you only have one option -- to do what you've always done. The future is the same as the past: unchangable. And just as you cannot change what you did yesterday, you cannot change what you will do tomorrow. An open future doesn't allow for foreknowledge, and does allow for choice.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes:
I mean, can he allow himself to not know which path you're gonna choose so that he's giving you free will?DS writes:
Foreknowledge itself is irrelevant.Catholic Scientist writes: Not to me it isn't. *sigh*Can't you follow a line of discussion? The presence or absence of foreknowledge isn't what determines whether there's free will -- it's the nature of the future that determines that. So, taking out foreknowledge doesn't change a thing. Foreknowledge is merely an indicator that the future is set -- it's not the cause.
Catholic Scientist writes: I don't know what you mean by "the nature of the future". A set future is one that's already been written. An open future doesn't get written -- doesn't become solid -- until it becomes the past. If the future is set, then it's just like the past, which is also set. Just as you cannot change what happened yesterday, you cannot change what will happen tomorrow. What will happen is just as certain as what has happened.
Catholic Scientist writes: My point is that foreknowledge does not remove the action of choosing, because both paths are still there. You can only have foreknowledge of which path will be taken if the other paths are blocked -- if you cannot take them. If you can take multiple paths, foreknowledge is limited to 'mights'.If the probability of you taking path X is 100%, all other paths are blocked, as @ 0% probability, they're impossibilities. Catholic Scientist writes: I just disagree, in general. I was explaining a set future -- not asserting that the future was set.
Catholic Scientist writes: I just think that god can have it both ways, without limitations being put on it. It's a limitation on the future. The future cannot be both open and set. This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 09-16-2005 01:31 AM
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: But allow me to get too unscientific on you and say that even when the future is open, god can know it and still allow it to be open. God can know that it's set with it still being open?
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
PaulK writes: If the future is fixed and inevitable it must be fixed from the very start of time. Not necessarily.Inflation magnified the effects of quantum fluctuations. Now if unmagnified quantum fluctuations have no impact on a macroscopic scale, then the universe would be deterministic only after the inflationary period.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Phatboy writes: Depending on which is true: Eternally existing matter/universe (which is oddly easier to believe in than a Creator) OR..an eternal Creator. Neither is relevant. You can have a future that is deterministic between probabalistic occurrences.If I'm in the act of throwing a baseball, prior to the baseball leaving my hand, it might be unknowable where it'll land. However, once the ball leaves my hand, its landing spot is perfectly knowable.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Unless you're god, then anything is possible, even the impossible, and the self-contradictory. Then God could've made that false; so nothing can be said about God.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Or everything could be said about god. Doesn't work that way.Any proposition could have an infinite number of truth values. It could be true. It could be false. It could be both true and false. It could be neither true nor false. It could be both true and false and neither true nor false. It could be neither both true and false nor neither true nor false. It could be both both true and false and neither true nor false and neither both true and false nor neither true nor false. And now I'm lost. Anyway, that's what you get when you throw the law of noncontradiction out the window.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: Is omnipotence limited to any laws? If it is then it isn't omnipotenece. Which is a law unto itself, so it's self-contradictory. This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 09-22-2005 05:26 PM
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Phatboy writes: How about the Messiah? Why was Jesus so un-Messiahlike? Didn't restore the Davidic Kingdom. No world peace. And he died, so he certainly didn't end death.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Phatboy writes: How about believing an idea? In other words, Could God be true whether or not we see the slighest bit of evidence? Of course. But anything which leaves no evidence is irrelevant.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Phatboy writes: OK...so the "perfect" Messiah would bring about world peace, restore the Davidic Kingdom to just one ethnic group, and would never die...right? No, that's just the Messiah that, according to the Tanakh, was promised to the Jews by God.The 'perfect' messiah would be one that brought me a dragon and a Defiant-class starship; but as nobody thinks that anybody promised that, it's irrelevant. Phatboy writes: Anyway...My point stands for all of us: God foreknew that we would think the way that we do. Mark 13:6-- Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. Considering the number of self-proclaimed messiahs that were running around at the time, that ain't exactly a prediction.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
DS writes: Of course. But anything which leaves no evidence is irrelevant. Catholic Scientist writes: irrelevant to what? My life.
Catholic Scientist writes: not the absolute truth. No, but the absolute truth is quite often irrelevant.If the absolute truth is that there are invisible, intangible faeries flying about my head, do I care? Not at all. They don't affect me in any way, so as far as I'm concerned, they're nonexistent.
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
I lost 2 kitties in 3 weeks to coyotes. That's never happened to me before.
Doesn't mean that God killed them. You fundies try too hard to insert purpose into things.Shit happens. Deal with it. This message has been edited by DominionSeraph, 09-29-2005 05:01 AM
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DominionSeraph Member (Idle past 4785 days) Posts: 365 From: on High Joined: |
Catholic Scientist writes: But it is different. It is not different to science or to life in 'our world', but if there is a god, and an afterlife, it does matter, It doesn't matter now, and that's all I was talking about.To bring up the faeries again; if they became tangible and started poking me, their existence would become very relevant. But they'd be giving me plenty of evidence that they exist, too. Same goes for an afterlife. If I die and then find myself in a world where I have my dragon and Defiant-class starship; my afterlife, my dragon, and my starship become relevant. But that's simply because I have evidence for all 3.
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