What if God foreknew human reactions?

I want this to go in Faith and Belief, because this topic presupposes a personal, interactive relationship with a living God.1) In the Bible, Jesus foreknew a lot of the situational interactions with the people that He encountered. Atheistic evolutionists often presuppose that myths about "God" were constructed for a reason. This topic will explore whether God foreknew certain human reactions to various issues.Issues such as worldwide competition and war based on distribution of resources,human psychological interactions within the species,
etc. As an aside, this topic is NOT about human outrage over why God allows pain and suffering.Did God foreknow that Biblical literalism would be an issue? Is the Bible a stumbling block to God for some people---a fact that He foreknew?

Lets assume that I knew what you were going to wear to school tomorrow. Just because I knew it, did I make the choice for you?

This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-14-2005 03:55 PM

This is because we do not have any power to demand a changeable future. The future is how the future will be. The past is how it was. Only the present moment offers us a chance to become the decisions that we make.We do not control the future, yet we do control our responses...our decisions. Regardless of how we turn out, we made the choices. It maters not if the choices were foreknown. It seems that you guys confuse the mind of God with your own mind...they are two seperate minds.

Maybe this explains the mystery of communion.
We are not God, although we can be in a common union with His Spirit. He is in the future already, being past present and future living.
Things that we have not yest decided cannot be known by Him, then...you reason. Am I right? Yes...some do believe this. But the mystery of the communion gets deep. Technically, God the Father may not have even foreknown what Jesus was going to do...until Jesus confirmed it through the communion of prayer and spirit..."nevertheless not MY will but Thy will be done!"Although I suppose that if Jesus had sinless blood, God had a logical idea of what must happen. It was Jesus choice, however.

So what is the difference between that statement and the statement "If my destiny is __________than I have to fullfill my destiny?"Is our destiny foreknown, or do we interact and shape our destiny every moment?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-14-2005 05:52 PM

One scripture comes to mind, but lets discuss the context. If a name were to be blotted out of a book, this would mean that the name originally was in that book....thus, an example of a conditional change in future plans by God.It appears that the humans to whom this is addressed have one requirment. To be overcomers.

Well...this IS the definition of a Creator...Its like an author who knows how the book will end. The characters in the book have free will within their roles, but ultimately the author knows how each life will end up.I suppose that we DO have free will to believe or disbelieve this theory....and if the theory is true regardless, then what can we do? Do we have a choice to complain? Deny? Go with the flow?And if the flow only went one way, Salmon would never mate!

I would'nt worry about it. The only way to get blotted out is to not overcome...which would be downright stubborn!Crashfrog mentions the apple/peach pie scenario...listen to what C.S. Lewis wrote about Abraham and the matter of choice: This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-15-2005 12:56 AM

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A youth is a person who is going to carry on what you have started. He will assume control of your cities, states, and nations. He is going to take over your churches, schools, and corporations. You may adopt all the policies you please, but how they are carried out depends on him. So it might be well to pay him some attention.* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.

This is why I say that you believe in human "wisdom". You do not believe in God. He is a creation of your mind for you, thus you determine His attributes, limitations, and character. God could make a mind so thick that He could not get through to it. Does this place a limit on God, or an oasis of delusion for that mind?
One more qustion: Could God make a creation that never had to see Him? If so, was it Gods fault that humans freely reject Him?If so, lets imagine a scale known as the scope of human wisdom.
Enter the question, "Knowledge of God." Subjective, right? Some subjects would say that God has a 0% chance of existance since they never saw Him. Others would say that He is real and would declare that 100%! Still others would be uncerrtain of either measure.About this scale: Who sets the rules of definition?
Human observation of nature?
All possible degrees of probability?Can one human be said to have a more accurate guage than another human? If a five year old "knows" that they have a monster under the bed, it is usually easy to teach them.If a U.F.O> abductee swears up and down that they were abducted, it is somewhat harder, often, to deprogram their belief.You know how impossible it is to change MY beliefs.Perhaps you are the same way.On the meter, is there any greater difference between 0% and 100%
than between either value and any value in between?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-15-2005 02:55 PM

Depending on which is true:Eternally existing matter/universe (which is oddly easier to believe in than a Creator)OR..an eternal Creator.Just remember this little jingle:The Past is HistoryThe Future is a mysteryThe Present is a gift.The gift is that only in each present moment can we interact with eternity..(for believers, that is)Otherwise...trying to calculate foreknowledge based on math without acknowleging a Creator is akin to fullfilling the "Ye shall be as gods.(creators) Which is only Science Fiction. (or speculation)I guess what I am trying to say is that it irks me when my belief is dismissed so readily since it is non-empirical, yet speculation on the mysterious "eternal" universe can take leaps and bounds in speculations that themselves may have no life to them (or truth)If God is Truth, truth is an unchanging reality. The difference between pre-destination and pre-determination is that we either freely choose to walk...moment by moment...into a future with the living truth as a guide, or we choose to walk alone..as a species..attempting to define or create our own version of the truth.(ye shall be as creators)Its human nature...but it is not how we HAVE to be.

I am not sure if I am quite up to snuff on your logic, but you ARE a deep thinker! I suppose that my question to you is this:Can a math problem ever solve itself? In other words, if one of the variables (say, a human) had a freewill option to change their intrinsic value within the context of the equation...would that change affect the answer to the equation?If you, as the professor, invented the equation, do you first know the answer and then invent the equation that leads to it?And I still don't understand why the argument declares that God removes our free will by knowing what we will decide. All that He knows is that we either will/will not obey. The variables who will obey walk with Him...and we were, we are, and we shall be.The variables who choose to deny Him once were, now are not, and yet are IF their names are written in the book of life.Thus...the scripture where God blots names out of a book already written is the point where God changes the equation based on the decision of the variables..(humans) The fact that He sees a finished equation does NOT mean that He needed to pay any particular mind as to what choice the variables would choose.(Scriptural allusions available upon request)

I'm trying to get a handle on this....If I knew you in the present as well as in the future, any decision that you make will be known by me, yet the important part of our relationship would, of course, be the present moment. You could choose the way that I did not actually want you to go, but it would be because of how you and I got along in the present moment. Good friends often talk each other out of certain things...distant friends or unknown strangers have no such influence. Just because I "knew" what you would do does not mean I would be happy and content with it...and my only way to allow you to have freewill would be to limit my influence on you to the present. God has no future influence on us...He chose for this to be so.
Oddly, we have "future" influence on Him...by virtue of prayer. It is not as if we imagine Him or "control" Him...we are communing with Him...moment by moment. If the prayer does not turn ot tomorrow as we wanted it to be while praying today, He is always there with us tomorrow as that good friend...Destiny is interaction with God but it is not based on human accomplishment entirely. (I am rambling here...perhaps I have to think more about my beliefs on this subject)What about prayer, then? When God "answers" prayer, He is actually not changing the future...He is interacting in a present moment not yet here. There is a difference. One view is from a mind that knows each dimension...the other view is from our mind which can only imagine and speculate on future dimensions based on gathered evidence/facts.This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-17-2005 08:50 AM

For a majority = invited. A minority= chosen. Many + Few =All.
Whosoever=Chosen...by choice and by design. A communion reality. Its not all on us (works) nor is it all on God (Omniwill) It is a communion.Majority = S. (Self willed) Minority=C. (surrender ego to Christ)S is greater than C. Or is it? This scripture does not mean that God calls all the shots. To me, it means that God will cover with His Spirit those whom allow His Spirit to cover them. The man at the wedding...with no clothes...was without a spiritual covering. Heaven is not a relativistic co-creation/imagination.Finally...lets evealuate John 3:16-- What type of a value is "whosoever"? I would say that this variable, otherwise known as who-so-chooses, is the difference between S and C. Thus, S could equal C, based on a freewill variable. Am I making any sense?

Just because God knows who are His sheep..(those who hear His voice) does not mean that He does all the choosing. It is a communion of choice...where He first chose us and we later choose Him.

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Whosoever is a definite value. Whosoever = the chosen. The many who are invited, apparantly includes everyone EXCEPT those who do not choose.

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If a person chooses not to believe, I think that they will get one more chance to see the reality of what they have freely rejected. Only after this awareness is anyone truly lost.

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If God allows us to freely and knowingly (with all information) reject Him, He is no longer responsible for us.

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This message has been edited by Phatboy, 09-18-2005 11:12 PM

OK...I'll agree with you. So as a believer, what do I do? Complain to God that life is not fair? Deny Him since the entire concept is so unreasonable? Or, perhaps, trust that He knows a bit more than I or any group of humans ever could hope to know. My parents "created" me and shaped my personality quirks and quarks by age 6. Do I go to a shrink for the rest of my life and blame them for the fact that I have odd personality abnormalities? Or do I grow up and do the best that I can while still loving and forgiving them.Do we need to "forgive" God for allowing us to be so selfish, powerless, and dependant on Him? I think that He desires a relationship with us ...He does not want a bunch of grown-up children who never call.