|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: What if God foreknew human reactions? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If God knows the future, he knows what we are going to do. Suppose I am walking down a trail and I come to a fork. I can either go left or right. But God knows and has always known that I'm going to the left. So how can I go right? But you still choose to go left. God's knowlegde of what choice you're going to make doesn't mean that you aren't choosing anymore. You could choose to go right but then god would have to have known. Do you think god can allow himself to not know the future? I mean, can he allow himself to not know which path you're gonna choose so that he's giving you free will?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
If I offer you a choice between peach and apple pie, and I have foreknowledge that you're going to chose apple and so I don't even bother to bring a peach pie along, what kind of choice was that? If there was no fork in the road to begin with then I cannot make a choice, I'd just keep on keepin on. But if you do bring 2 pies and you do know which one i will choose, that does not stop me from making the choice.
If God is outside of time then the future is not the future to God. This sounds like you're putting limitations on god. If you're goin to assume that I assume that god is outside of time then I'm goin to assume that you arguing about an omnipotent god, with which the future could be a future to god. It's like that "is omnipotence logically impossible" thread, if you put a limit on god then he is, logically impossible, and if you don't then he isn't, IIRC.
If the alternate outcome isn't even a possibility, which it can't be because of God's foreknowledge, how can you be said to have choice? Well, ouside of my opinions on the subject, the alternative outcome is a possibility if god chooses to ignore his foreknowledge, or forsake it, or decide to not even have it in the first place.
What does it mean, to you, to have choice? When I come to that fork in the road, I decide which way to go, even if god knows which decision i make, i still make the choice.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Foreknowledge itself is irrelevant. Not to me it isn't.
It's merely an indicator of the nature of the future, and it's the nature of the future that determines if there's choice. I don't know what you mean by "the nature of the future".
A set future allows for foreknowledge, and doesn't allow for choice; as you only have one option My point is that foreknowledge does not remove the action of choosing, because both paths are still there.
The future is the same as the past: unchangable. And just as you cannot change what you did yesterday, you cannot change what you will do tomorrow. I just disagree, in general.
An open future doesn't allow for foreknowledge, and does allow for choice. I just think that god can have it both ways, without limitations being put on it.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
hmmmm, that's deep. I don't really like scripture that much because I can never really make any sense of it.
It seems that that quote suggests that god might not know the future. But doesn't this limit his omniscience?
If a name were to be blotted out of a book, this would mean that the name originally was in that book....thus, an example of a conditional change in future plans by God. So, you're supporting the idea that god can allow himself to be unknowing of the future? Whats you take on that passage? I just can't make sense of it.
It appears that the humans to whom this is addressed have one requirment. To be overcomers. But I think the argument is that if god decides your future, or knows what you're gonna do, then you are unable to overcome this knowledge and are robbed of free will. What do you think?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
although I have always believed that God knew everything! yeah, but i think we agree tha god knowing our choice/decision does not remove our choice/decision from the action. My point was that, if god is capable of anything, he should also be able to allow himself to be surprised, so to speak, by what choice we make. Like, he intentionally forgets, if he previously knew, what choice we will make in a way to allow, or grant, us free will. This way his omniscience can coexist with free will, not that it cannot in another way.
A familiar example is Abraham's "trial" when he was ordered to sacrifice Isaac again my meager attempt to understand these 'crazy', IMO, stories is going to be weak, but here goes...
But as St. Augustine points out, whatever God knew, Abraham at any rate did not know that his obedience could endure such a command until the event taught him So even thow god knows what we are going to do, we still must do them to learn, for ourselves, what we are going to do.
and the obedience which he did not know that he would choose, he cannot be said to have chosen. so we cannot say that he choose the obidience, i.e. perdestination
The reality of Abraham's obedience was the act itself; and what God knew in knowing that Abraham "would obey" was Abrahams actual obedience so, is this allowing the act to be free will, or does it still just support predestination?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Can't you follow a line of discussion? I like to think that I can.
An open future doesn't get written -- doesn't become solid -- until it becomes the past. This is how I view the future, as an open future. But allow me to get too unscientific on you and say that even when the future is open, god can know it and still allow it to be open.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
quote:That's not just unscientific - it's self contradictory. It can't be true. Unless you're god, then anything is possible, even the impossible, and the self-contradictory.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
PaulK writes: an omnipotent God should be capable of creating ANY logically possible universe an omnipotent God should be capable of creating ANYthing Limiting omnipotence to only the logically possible makes it no longer omnipotence. Omnipotence has to be limitless, by definition. So, omnipotence should be capable of the logically impossible as well.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Catholic Scientist writes:
Then God could've made that false; so nothing can be said about God.
Unless you're god, then anything is possible, even the impossible, and the self-contradictory. Or everything could be said about god.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Doesn't work that way. Is omnipotence limited to any laws? If it is then it isn't omnipotenece. It's something just really close.
Anyway, that's what you get when you throw the law of noncontradiction out the window. Right.
And now I'm lost. Right again. Omnipotence is always going to loose you. No matter how far you push it back into you understanding, it can always go one step further.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Catholic Scientist writes: Is omnipotence limited to any laws? If it is then it isn't omnipotenece. Which is a law unto itself, so it's self-contradictory.
and?, I mean, so what? This message has been edited by Catholic Scientist, 09-23-2005 12:21 AM
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
Of course. But anything which leaves no evidence is irrelevant. irrelevant to what? not the absolute truth.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
irrelevant to what?not the absolute truth
I imagine it would be irrelevant to establishing god exists at all.
ok, I agree we're not gonna establish that god exists, and whether or not he is omnipotent is irrelevant to the establishment.
By absolute truth you mean what? I meant that if god does exist then he is relevant, and not having evidence of god does not make god irrelevant, assuming he does exist.
DominionSeraph writes: But anything which leaves no evidence is irrelevant. God would be an exception to this statement.
Can you elaborate on the implication of the phrase "absolute truth"? When discussing the existance of god, the absolute truth is whether or not god does exist. We don't have any objective reason for believing in him, suggesting that he does not exist, but if he does exist then the absoulte truth would be that he does despite the suggestion that he doesn't.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
But is there an existence,to us as humans, that is seperate from evidence for such? If I thought there was, how would I go about showing you?
Can we seriously contemplate existence of something that does not leave a trace? No, we cannot. Keep in mind that I think that god left a trace. on the side: what about transitional species that we don't have fossils for? They left no trace but we contemplate their existence...or do we consider species A and species C as the 'trace' for species B.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||
New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
We can measure the properties of these forces quite well and the problem for you to show occurs in explaining how anything manifests itself to human experience without trace since any means that attends to the senses we possess need involve manipulation of one or more of these forces. So you're defining 'witout trace' as not involving the manipulation of one of the four fundamental forces. And I need to show how something could manifest itself to human experience without manipulating one of the fundamental forces. The manifestation would have be subjective. If it was a force that was not one of the fundamental, i mean one that we are not aware of objectively but only subjectively, you could not use the manipulation of the fundamental forces to explain it. Now, this subjective force would be useless to science, as we know it. But, if the subjective force did manifest itself in a human's experience, you would expect the lack of manipulation of one of the fundamental forces to negate the manifestation?
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024