What is The Atonement?

That was in reponse to the idea that God can do anything at all - which was a fairly unsubstantiated *waves hand* statement. A god made-in-ones-own image might be able to exist/not exist/then exist again. But God of the bible is constrained - by his very own being.And there is ample evidence to support that view not least the lack of need to sacrifice an obviously loved son if simple waving of the hand forgivness had been possible. The disabled child is suffering the consequences of the Fall. Death, illness, disease came in. As did the infection of sin. Everyone has the infection - even the child. And everyone will die (physically) due to that infection. Our sin is a diffent matter. We will be judged not by the infection but by its outworking - our own sin.God didn't sin, God didn't spread the infection. All God does is try to save us from the consequences of it

In a nutshell...and I doubt I argued any differently elsewhere:Adam sinned. When he did, he died spiritually then - and died physically later.All his offspring: you, me, the disabled child etc inherited exactly what he had: we are born with dead spirits and we are born with bodies that will die. Not only die but suffer the other consequences of the fall: sickness, disease, pain etcThe disabled child is disabled because of the fall, is suffering the consequences of the fall - even if it hasn't had the opportunity to sin itself. The child, because it is spiritually dead, has a sinful nature and so, will in time commit its own sins. When the child or anybody else dies physically, then it does so because of this disease it inherited from Adam. Then the sins it has committed come into reckoning in a spiritual sense (although a man does "reap what he sows": his sin: say excessive drinking, can be visited upon him in this life)"Put to death" is not the same as dying physically. Dying physically is just dying physically. If I may mix verses to illustrate "The wages of sin is (being put to) death" Wages are something earned. It is our own sin that earns "being put to death" Being "put to death" means being separated finally from any loving contact with God (we all experience this in life by his universal Providence: joy, happiness, tasty food,etc). Separated from this aspect of God and exposed only to his wrath.

What about the defendant? Aren't we forgetting him here?If he doesn't want any of this waiving business. He has got every right to stand up and say "hang on a second - I don't agree with any of this lark. Waiving implies I'm guilty but being let off. I don't agree with the decision of the court. I won't tolerate it - I'm innocent. You can shove your waiving. Its declared innocent or nothing"What then?

God isn't going to nor ever has destroyed a human. Thats the horror of hell for you. And the joy of heaven.

Eventual physical death + being born spiritually dead as a result of the fathers (Adams) infection.Put to death (exposed to the wrath of God, separated from his love) as a result of ones own sintwo different things

Absolutely. And if you don't forgive you don't. The persons perogative too. The person may chose to punish insteadThis message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 07:06 PM

But that verse you quoted me as quoting says otherwise. It said put to death for ones own sins not those of the father. It draws a distinction.If a person was born spirtually dead due to father and sinned as a result without any outside interferance ie: they did only what they could do - then it would seem unjust to punish them for the sins of the father.But there is outside interferance. God calls. Thus the person who ignores the call has an option. Follow the call of the disease or respond to the call of God. I would suggest the balance is perfect that all is left over is the choice the person themselves makes

Nah mate. Thats the Gospel according to Jar Forgiveness is available to all, the gift is available to all. One of the numerous things that happen during the headline action of salvation is forgiveness of sins. But it occurs in the process of salvation. If the process never happens then the forgiveness never occurs.The general sequence is as follows:A person recognises (by whatever form that triggers it: want/despair/guilt/pain/advancing age/flash of inspiration/nature around them) their need of God to be the one to save them (in whatever form 'save' is formulated in them)God then:Justifies them: ie: he doesn't see them as sinners (unrighteous) but righteous. Or rather clothed in Christs righteousness. He forgives all their sin: every one, no matter how appalling. All sins past, present and future. And he lets them know that. It is quite refreshing - especially if you've alot of baggage.He adopts them as sons (and daughters). The person feels peace. They have been at war with God (even if they didn't see it as such) so the peace is tanglible.He moves into the person: whereas before God was separate from man in spirit, now he dwells in the man. The purpose of the Spirit is multifold but include in varying degrees: confirming to the person that God has moved in, guiding the person in the way that God wants them to go, interceding with the father on the persons behalf - like it's not like we can speak Gods 'language'.Begins the process of sanctification: could be seen as training the person for life in heavenMakes the person feel like an alien on earth. Sounds like it wouldn't be nice but it's not unpleasantThere are other things too and the degree in which a person experiences these will vary. No matter. Some won't feel a sense of assurance of salvation. But it doesn't mean they aren't saved. If God has saved then that is that.

All born infected. The weeping sores of the infection (sin) will all too soon manifest the infection Adam sinned, then sinful nature entered him as a disease. In that sense, the child (and everyone) is suffering in being infected with the same disease - a consequence of Adams action.

I make it up as I go along nah only kidding PD. I get it from the same place you do, the same place where we get the idea of the Trinity.Try Romans 5:12Sure sounds like an epidemic to me..This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 09:35 PM

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are not Jesus. We can only assume these words are accurate both in original originator, recording of and transmission of - if we assume God ensured it would be so.Either all of it is assumed (for the purposed of discussion) to be the word of God or none of it is assumed to be the word of God.Unless you have some way of discerning the difference...

Hi BuzawAlthough there might be aspects of what you said that we could flesh out I agree with what you say in that you describe the mechanistic, (for want of a better word) aspects of salvation. I agree too, that the above is no more means to salvation that is water baptism as an infant + all the rest. However, I think some confusion could arise in the unapprraised, if they read what you write and took it at face value: ie: that they have to understand and accept all these things to the fullness of measure you describe.We have ample biblcal demonstration of that this is NOT the case with the thief on the cross who only recognised (in so far as he did) Jesus as Lord and savior. His statement "Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom" incorporated the essential elements:recognition of Jesus as Lord,
recognition that Jesus was the way to heaven,
recogniton, in his conversation with the other thief, that he was a sinner deserving of what he was receiving.But he wouldn't have understood things to the extent you describe. His was a more childlike, simplistic expression. But it was the heart behind it that Jesus saw. It is always the heart behind it that Jesus sees.Thus Jesus replied "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in Paradise". Saved by this childlike act of faith.In my own experience to, I found the same. I cried out to God. Not because I could write an essay on my sinfulness, not because I understood anything in the least about salvation, not because I knew the wages of sin was death. But simply because I had nowhere else to go. Only God could rescue me from what I had come to recognise was a despicable life. I didn't want God per se. I wanted out of where I was and did offer my life over to him - because he was the only option.Desperation does strange things to a fella.It was over the course of a year that I began to learn the mechanics. I found it all made sense "Of course!!" "It fits!" were regular exclamations whilst I read. I found the bible describe what it was I sensed was actually going on inside me - the two matched together perfectly.I must have been about a year in when I was reading through a tract I was intending to give to someone else (!). It talked about the basic salvation message and had a bit on forgiveness. It suggested that the person write down all their sin on a piece of paper. Every little thing that could be rememebered. So I did: categories of sin (drugs, sex) specific sins (specific actions over the years). Scribble, scribble. Then I came to stuff I couldn't even write down it was that shameful. I thought to myself "If I were to drop dead this second, people I love would read this - I can't" The next second the thought struck me: "Je kan het wel in het Nederlands!" ("You can of course...in Dutch!". I happen to speak Dutch... Off I went again. And at the end the instruction was write the verse "For he is gracious and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from every unrighteousness" across the page. Then burn it. It was only a symbol...of what God does with sin.I was saved before I wrote anything down. I repented of my sin a year after. I only came to understand repentance then. How do I know I was saved?The doctrine you describe can only be understood to that level when a person recieves the holy spirit - who removes the blindness and lets them see how it all fits. A person who is blind cannot "for it is foolishness to them". I recognised and understood doctrine before I got to the doctrine of forgivenss. I could only do this "by the Spirit". I had the Spirit before I repented in this fuller sense.To the unappraised:
All you can do is recognise your need to 'thief on the cross' levels and make a confession from the heart based on that. God doesn't demand the impossible - he only demands our heart desiring him to save...If it's from the heart, he'll know and he'll save. You can understand the doctrine more fully later...Thank God

I think the real drama of the 'story' is at the other end. Even an idle musing about what God would be like should awaken in all but the most crass, a sense of awe and wonder. We are familiar enough with our own powers to be able to compare them to his. For me, it's looking at a star-filled night and thinking of these been spoken into existance.Then 2000 or so years ago, this eternal God decided that the time was right and..... stepped into time. Stooped down to our level. Communed with us - his creation Something that could be equally achieved by it being true.

Punishment is the wrong word. Consequence is the right one. God gave man dominion over creation. He gave man dominion over a factory assembled and perfectly functioning V8 engine. He said "don't mess with it - it is good" Man disobeyed, spannered on the engine and it has not run right since. Dominion brings with it responsibilty. The German nation was punished due to the actions of those who had dominion over it. Same kind of thingDeuteronomy talks about 'putting to death' not being due to the sins of the father. And no one will be put to death for the sins of Adam nor anyone else. It will ones own sin, made despite a conscience telling them not to do so, that will result in them being put to death. Unless they are set free. It is a common misunderstanding which asserts people having a choice to take or leave God in an ultimate sense. Everyone will face God whether they like it or not. It is not up to the person to decide that. All a person can do is decide under which circumstances they meet him. That's all. Disbelieving in God doesn't make him go away

We don't see time as sequential. Time is sequential. In eternity there is no time. No sequence. God sees your yesterday, today and tomorrow all the time. He knows the sin you are going to commit today and he knows if you are going to turn to him. If you do then he will (because Jesus crucifixion is as present to him as the occasion of your sin) punish it in Jesus.The name God gave himself when Moses asked him "who shall I say sent me?" was "I AM" I AM is present tense, eternally present tense. Every moment in our time is present tense to GodNot that anyone can fully get their head around eternity Nearly...its not "God hates us"...it's "God hates our sin". And whoever has the sin in them will feel the wrath if they possess it. Jesus or themselves."For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten son so that whosoever would believe in him would not die but have eternal life"That's how much God loves us...he sacrificed his son. It is easy to skip over this in debate but I ask you to face it. There is the proof of his love for us. What more do you want (without contrdicting his wrath and just-ness)Try Romans 1:18
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness OF men..." Not on man but on something man possesses. Have you got an example. The only person the bible talks about who was without sin was Jesus. No other. John 3:3/5"I tell you the truth, unless a man is born from above/again/of the spirit he will never see the kingdom of heaven"John 3:6 "That which is born of flesh is flesh, that which is born of spirit is spirit"John verse 8 "so is everyone who is born of the spirit"Unless"....shows that something must happen to see the kingdom of heaven"Born of spirit" is the something.Now the question is how is one born of the spirit?