About that Boat - Noah's Ark

Well, yer not really polluting since those rocks came from there anyway, eh.

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Reunite Gondwana!

IIRC, the Ark had no rudder or powerplant, sails, etc. Even a good sea anchor is no protection from broaching on a vessel with as much windage.
Ya know, whatever kinda reminds me of Cliffie.[This message has been edited Bonobojones, 05-03-2004]

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Reunite Gondwana!

Well, ya know Nawm, the ancient Babblingonians used inflated whale penises (can I say penis) as life jackets when they sailed their ahks.

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Reunite Gondwana!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Got an idea for you, RAZD
Give me a valid e-mail. got a job
For all the rest, well...the flood never happened!!{Edited to removed excessive "......" to restore page width to normal - Adminnemooseus}[This message has been edited Adminnemooseus, 05-04-2004]

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Reunite Gondwana!

I see a lot of numbers being tossed about about hull bending and such, but they do not seem to be used by anyone here who has actually built a wooden boat or been involved in designing one.I have been messing about in boats for the last 40 of my 52 years, and working in design and construction of vessels since '88, so I have some small knowledge of the topic.
The ancient Greeks and Romans built some nice boats, as did the Egyptians, but we have yet to find anything the size the ark is supposed to have been. 19th century ship builders discovered that a large vessel HAD to be reinforced with metal. Bronze floors, metal disgonals, etc. This is never shown in ancient ship building.
Let's just touch upon the backbone. Just the sheer size of the molding and siding of such a timber would have required a huge tree. It could not have been laminated due to the lack of any sort of structural adhesive. To get the length required would have involved multiple scarph joins, secured with, most likely trunnels, as archaeological evidence suggests from contemporary sources.
Any hull, wood, glass or steel, works in a seaway. All the forces are directed to the weakest part of the whole. This is why boats often leak at the deck joints and why deck joints and cabin/deck joints fail, often with catastrophic results under severe condidtions. (and the Flood would have been severe, due to the enormous fetch.)She would have worked so much, her seams would open to the sea and no family of 8 could bail her fast enough even with modern dewatering devices.
The Ark would have been totally at the mercy of the seas, without directional control or any way to provide thrust to keep her from broaching.
In short, I can't see it happening. Besides the fact that there is no evidence on the earth of a world wide Delude.

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Reunite Gondwana!

I gotta tell you, it wasn't an accident. I enjoyed the response I got when I used the term "Great Delude" over on military.com so much that I decided that I should use it more often.
Ayah, been away for a bit, but when I see people talking about a topic, using streches of the imagination to qualify their arguments, I have to jump in. Especially about boats,
I'll se ya more often here, at least until the workload increases.

Nice rant.
No support for your claims.
I'll get back to you late after I've had some time to digest what you are saying.

O.K. I've had some time to read your, rather angry, post. Instead of taking up space quoting the entire tirade, I'll just briefly answer your points.Point 1. Ayah, you're right. Nowhere does it say what Noah did before the flud. It also does not say he wasn't a goat herder and it for sure doesn't say he was a boat builder. So what.
Ignorant prejudice, you say. We have met? You know me? Then you know I'm a Jew, right? I think I know our book.Point 2. It is the dating by Bishop Ussher that you guys use to determine when the Great Delude took place. The Bronze Age. Do you have a timeline other than Ussher's you'd like to use? Give us some dates, please.
Now we all know that the OT wasn't actually written until around the time of the Babylonian Captivity, so one can expect anachronisms. There is nothing at all in the archaeological evidence to show any boats being built with iron 4500 years ago. I am afraid your sources are in error.
They had no marine adhesives. Yeah, there were simple glues, but would you trust a primitive glue, made from animal products, to hold together a laminated keel or framework? I know I wouldn't. It wasn't until Resorcinol and epoxies came along that laminating for the marine environment became practical. (Oh, and 100,000 years ago men were also making musical instruments.)Point 3. ...human timelines over the biblical timeline...? Do you mean history over myth? If all human cultural evidence was wiped out by the flood, how come the Old Kingdom of Egypt was blissfully unaware of the cataclysm?
Relevant to use biblical timelines over history? Well, since we are talking about a mythical event, well....
Yup, the Bible claims we are all decended form Noah's kids, so we should see a genetic bottleneck about 6000 years ago,eh. Where is it. More to the point, where is the geological evidence for the Great Delude?
Ah, Gilgamesh. Great Sumerian myth. Could it be that the ancients, while in Babylon, heard the tale and incorporated it? The rest of your point is drivel.Point 4. Your ignorance is showing. All wooden vessels, modern and ancient, had some form of backbone. Can't build a large wooden boat without one. You really have no clue as to what you're talking about, do you?
A boat is not a house.(though there are houseboats, but that's a different subject) A boatbuilder can build a good house, but it has been my experience that few house carpenters can build a good boat, without some re-training. Apples and papayas.Point 5. Hissy fit???
Numbers are only useful when applied in their proper context, eh. I suggest you pick up a copy of Skene's any other good book in design and construction of wooden boats. Skene's is easy to read and even has pictures!
That is the point, isn't it. With the technology they had back then, a 450' floating zoo to house, what, 50 million species, was impossible. It it were possible today, why doesn't Baugh or Hovind use some of their $$ and build one. I'd like to see them do it with 8 inexperienced people.
Tell ya what, bGen, build a boat then get back to me.

An interesting site, but it is really written for people with little understanding about ocean going vessels.
The first thing I checked was the Roll stability calculator.The Roll Stability Calculator can be used to study the stability of various hull cross-sections in static equilibrium. (Tilting slowly in flat water). This is one of the first things to be checked in a new design. Static roll stability can also be easily verified by building a scale model and tilting it over in the water.Well, I don't think anyone is arguing that a big barge has static stability. The problem is its ultimate stability. And its resistance to broaching. And its ability to carry 30 million species and the food, water, etc. for a year's voyage.Another problem people seem to avoid discussing is the survivability of the cargo and crew. I still remember the North Atlantic storm I rode out when aboard a 378' CG cutter. People were getting injured by the frantic motion of the ship and if we had lost power, well, let's just say I never wanted to be on a submarine. There were plenty of hand holds for us humans to grab to keep from being dashed to bits on the bulkheads, but any 4 legged crew would have had their heads bashed in! The Ark has to be approached as a whole. Vessel, cargo, weather, etc.I gave a read of the Moonies' analysis of the ark and I was disturbed by there use of may have or might have been used. They seemed to avoid many of the hard questions and instead substituted a lot of math the try to show how scientific their study was. Unfortunately, I see nothing that would point to any high level of survivability of an unpowered barge, with no directional control, in an extreme environment.I've said it before. If their calculations are so good, I'm sure they can get AiG to cough up the cash to build a replica, 8 people using hand tools, and set it afloat in the North Atlantic for a year. After all, replica ships are being built all the time all over the world.I gave the rest of the site a look and I am not impressed. It is full of what I call Tech-mining, similar to quote-mining. Ya know, shoe-horning tech to fit.As a sidebar, the date they gave for the Great Delude just don't fit. ~2300 BCE? Otzi died about 3200BCE, but there is no sign of flood deposits on his corpse. Malta has temples dated from 7000-5000 years ago, with no flood layers. Harappa has evidence of early civilizations from 3300-2800 BCE, with no flood layer. Let's not forget the Neolithic settlements in central Turkey, 7000 BCE.
Oh, yeah, I forgot. Radiocarbon dating is unreliable. Silly me!

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Reunite Gondwana!

An interesting site, but it is really written for people with little understanding about ocean going vessels.
The first thing I checked was the Roll stability calculator.The Roll Stability Calculator can be used to study the stability of various hull cross-sections in static equilibrium. (Tilting slowly in flat water). This is one of the first things to be checked in a new design. Static roll stability can also be easily verified by building a scale model and tilting it over in the water.Well, I don't think anyone is arguing that a big barge has static stability. The problem is its ultimate stability. And its resistance to broaching. And its ability to carry 30 million species and the food, water, etc. for a year's voyage.Another problem people seem to avoid discussing is the survivability of the cargo and crew. I still remember the North Atlantic storm I rode out when aboard a 378' CG cutter. People were getting injured by the frantic motion of the ship and if we had lost power, well, let's just say I never wanted to be on a submarine. There were plenty of hand holds for us humans to grab to keep from being dashed to bits on the bulkheads, but any 4 legged crew would have had their heads bashed in! The Ark has to be approached as a whole. Vessel, cargo, weather, etc.I gave a read of the Moonies' analysis of the ark and I was disturbed by there use of may have or might have been used. They seemed to avoid many of the hard questions and instead substituted a lot of math the try to show how scientific their study was. Unfortunately, I see nothing that would point to any high level of survivability of an unpowered barge, with no directional control, in an extreme environment.I've said it before. If their calculations are so good, I'm sure they can get AiG to cough up the cash to build a replica, 8 people using hand tools, and set it afloat in the North Atlantic for a year. After all, replica ships are being built all the time all over the world.I gave the rest of the site a look and I am not impressed. It is full of what I call Tech-mining, similar to quote-mining. Ya know, shoe-horning tech to fit.As a sidebar, the date they gave for the Great Delude just don't fit. ~2300 BCE? Otzi died about 3200BCE, but there is no sign of flood deposits on his corpse. Malta has temples dated from 7000-5000 years ago, with no flood layers. Harappa has evidence of early civilizations from 3300-2800 BCE, with no flood layer. Let's not forget the Neolithic settlements in central Turkey, 7000 BCE.
Oh, yeah, I forgot. Radiocarbon dating is unreliable. Silly me!

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Reunite Gondwana!

Your right about a hull working in a seaway. In the days of the "wooden walls", the pumps were manned almost constantly during weather, not because of water on the decks, but because the seams would open.
Keep in mind, also, that the Ark is more of a barge than an ocean going vessel. No rudder, no sails, nothing to keep her from broaching or being battered to pieces by a tempest that would make the "Perfect Storm" seem like a pleasant summer cruise.

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Reunite Gondwana!

Good ta be back. I've been battling creationists over at military.com.
Ya find fun where ever ya can.

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Reunite Gondwana!

Well, then. All those folks have built are models and have yet to do a full scale reproduction of the vessel, its cargo and the voyage.My arguement still stands.

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Reunite Gondwana!