Death of a Scotsman (Re: the "no true Scotsman" fallacy)

I see that Phat is the only one who has bothered to consider what the founder of Christianity says about this.In Jesus' day, the Pharisees were the hypocrites. The were born into Israel, so they called themselves Israelites, but Jesus told them they weren't true Israelites. Can the King of the Israel commit a "No True Israelite" fallacy? They certainly thought they were children of Abraham, but what did Jesus say? and in another place... And to us he gives a warning... If Jesus says this about people who at one point in their lives have great enough faith to do miracles 'in His name' and cast out demons, then surely many who think they are "Christians" are not really His true followers. Only the person who keeps doing the will of the Father is a true Christian. Many denominations and sects would rather study "church fathers" and teachings and doctrines of men than continue in Jesus' Word.The Bible is the easiest book in the world to understand. A little child can understand it. It is only the impure motives of the heart and the false doctrines of men that get in the way of a true understanding of the Word and what it means to be a "true follower" worshiping in Spirit and in Truth.

That's not a cop-out. That's basically what Jesus said.

Evil behavior leads to damnation. We agree.If you are a Christian, you are not being led toward damnation, but towards eternal life being "transformed into that same image [of the glory of the Lord]" having "Christ in you, the hope of glory."Therefore, "No true Christian" behaves in an evil manner. This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-18-2006 05:41 PM

How so? Yep and yep.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-18-2006 05:45 PM

Yep. No slip-ups. But if you do slip-up, you repent, and keep on progressing. Well, that's what tribulation is for: to separate the wheat from the chaff... to take the leaven out of the bread... to draw the true followers out into dependance on God and the Judas's out to be revealed as the sons of perdition.Many times in the Old Testament there were only a handful of people who truly followed God: Noah, Lot, Caleb and Joshua, the prophets. Its pretty clear that God likes to make his noble vessles the rarest kind. Its always "the remnant" not the majority.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-19-2006 02:52 AM

I think you're missing the point I'm making.If you are born again, you are spotless. You have been washed. Your sinful fleshly nature died with Christ. It is no longer you who live, but Christ living in you. You are a new creation. The old self has passed away. You are being transformed by the renewing of your mind into the image of Christ. No one who has been born of God continues to sin. Christ said, "Be ye perfect," and you let him make you perfect. You don't sin anymore, never again.... BUT... IF YOU DO SIN, you repent and turn back to God.If you don't repent, yet continue to call yourself a Christian (as many people do), you are a hypocrite, and Jesus will turn you away as an evildoer. And if Jesus turns you away, I'd say that's a pretty strong indication you are not a true Christian. Let's look at this one: Okay, here we have some Christian people who are doing wrong. What does Paul say about it? He says, don't deceive yourselves, you won't inherit the kingdom of God if you keep it up. And then he reminds them that they WERE all those things, but NOT ANYMORE only IF they continue in the faith and hope of the gospel.The key here is "WERE". They WERE sinners, but not anymore. He is encouraging them to quit sinning by reminding them that they are no longer sinners. Being a sinner and being a Christian are mutually exclusive states. "A man cannot serve two masters." He will either be mastered by his flesh or by God's Spirit. The first step to being mastered by God's Spirit is accepting by faith that your fleshly sinful nature is dead. But yet your flesh lives! Its a paradox. You died with Christ and you sacrifice fleshly self daily. You keep believing it until it is made manifest. And if you believe it you WILL be transformed.If a Christian brother falls into sin, we don't tell him he's not a Christian, we remind him of the hope that he's not a sinner, but he must repent to remain under the covenant of Christ's love and grace. If he doesn't repent, yet continues to call himself a Christian, he is a liar and a hypocrite like the Pharisees and not the child of Abraham he claims to be.This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 02-19-2006 02:47 AM

Thanks for your reply. It's not "yadda yadda yadda." Its the meat of the matter. Faith means that you believe God's promises are true until they are manifested. If you believe that you are a sinner, that is what you will remain. If you believe you have been purified, you will be transformed into the image of Christ. If you say that you have been purified, but go on to willfully commit sin, you are a liar, not a Christian, and the truth is not in you. If you miss this point about faith, you miss the whole point of Christianity.Christ did not die so that we could go on living in sin waiting for the day we die so that we may at last be purified by the death of the flesh. By faith we put to death the flesh every day, so that the kingdom of heaven reigns in us in the here and now. Eternal life begins today... not when you die. To be a Christian is to be free from sin. Period. This is not possible for a human. But all things are possible with God. "Be it done to you according to your faith." ALL Christians get saved. Not everyone who calls himself a Christian gets saved. Ideas can't sin. Christianity can't sin. Only people can sin. People have perverted Christian teachings into something else by adhering to doctrines and traditions of men just like the Pharisees did to Judaism. And what did Jesus say to the Pharisees who were descended from Abraham? "IF you were Abraham's children, you would do what Abraham did... If God were your father, you would love me... You belong to your father the devil."The Pharisees were born Israelites, but Jesus says they aren't Israelites because they don't do what's right. The same applies to Christians. How can a set of beliefs or ideas repent? So you think I should repent for what Hitler did? That's completely absurd. Well, fine. I'll take the easy way out. Why should I have to feel guilty for atrocities committed by people who perverted Christianity into something that no longer bore any resemblance to Christianity. If Christ doesn't call them his brothers, then they aren't my brothers either. Mat 12:50 "For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." How can an idea or a belief screw up? People are intolerant and oppressive. Just like the Pharisees were. And if Jesus were here, he would say the same thing to them that he said to the Pharisees, "You are not Sons of God, but sons of your father the Devil!" He didn't say that the law, the prophets, and judaism had screwed up. He said the Pharisees had screwed up because they followed doctrines and traditions of men instead of the law and prophets. Neither Christianity nor Islam can commit "barbarous acts", only people can.Now after studying the teachings of Christ, do you really believe that any of these barbarous acts were done in obedience to any of Christ's commands? To be a Christian is to have God as your father. To have God as your father is to love Christ. To Love Christ is to obey his commands chiefly to love one another. Therefore these were not "Christian" acts but devilish acts. People continue to be intolerant as they always have. Some more than others. Whether or not the religion they profess is the source of such ideas depends on what the religions's original texts say. We look at the origins of a religion to determine if the present manifestation of that religion is the true thing or a perversion of it. I haven't studied Islam enough to make a case as to whether or not the acts committed in the name of Islam today are true to Islam or a perversion of it. But I have studied Christianity well enough to know when things are a perversion of it and not the real deal.

Thats very interesting! I'd never heard about that interview before. It is a powerful lesson. But that's the whole point of Christianity. As long as we have no faith, we are no different than the beasts of the field. Our flesh reigns in us. We all have a hitler inside of us.But through faith in Christ the old man died with Christ, it no longer lives, but a new creation not subject to those beastly hitleresque activites has taken its place.If the old flesh no longer lives, how can it still sin? It can't. To be a follower of Christ means that you believe this work has already been completed in you until you see it manifested. If you don't continue in your faith until you see it manifested in you, then you aren't a follower of Christ because "the righteous walk by faith."Christ put all kinds of conditional clauses on who his true followers were. It seems ridiculous to me to ignore all these and posit that everyone who claims to be a Christian is a true follower of Christ when that is clearly not the case.

You're still not understanding me because I'm speaking in terms of faith. What we hope for may not be manifested at the present moment. But the only way to manifest it is to endure in faith that you have received it. This is the paradox of faith in Christianity. Mark 11:24 That is why I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it and it will be yours.My flesh died with Christ, yet it still lives, and I must put it to death daily. Rom 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren ... to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God..." Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.For whosoever would save his life shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake shall find it.We always have to be on our guard against the beastly flesh, but the only way we can defeat it is if we have faith that it is dead.Its kinda like the power of positive thinking except with the promises of God to back it up.You've heard the story of the Indian guy who married this ugly chick, but paid a huge dowry and kept telling her she was beautiful, and then one day he returned to his villiage and no one recognized his wife because she was so beautiful....its sorta the same kinda thing.

Some conditions that Jesus puts on being a Christian:

Thanks for your reply. If He's the king of the Jews, then certainly He gets to decide who his subjects are. If he says you're not a Jew, then by golly you're not a Jew. If we're putting semantics aside, then they are all conditions on being a Christian, because that is the whole point of being a Christian: following Christ, loving Him, obeying him, being saved into heaven, etc...Being a Christian is being a disciple is being obedient is loving Him is being a servant is being saved.Being a Christian is not, "Oh, look at me I'm a Christian! Lets go commit genocide and accumulate wealth while there are starving kids in Africa."