|
Understanding through Discussion |
|
|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
| Thread ▼ Details |
|
|
| Author | Topic: Death of a Scotsman (Re: the "no true Scotsman" fallacy) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Phat Member  Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Omni writes: Taking this ball and running with it..... For an external perspective, all this seems like a distraction. If we call Christianity to account for its impact on the world, should we not include all that is done in Christianity's name, including the true flock and the wolves they allow amongst them? Several U.S. Army personel were indicted in that prison abuse scandal in Abugabi. Does that mean that the ENTIRE U.S. Military should be held accountable for the actions of these few? Should Americans of the present day and era be held accountable for slavery?
sidelined writes: The point of the True Scotsman fallacy has nothing to do with the nationality but with the shifting of goalposts when a person premise, after being nullified by a contrary example, is re-engaged by redefining the premise to accomodate the contrary evidence. Hmmmm...lemme consult Mr. Google to get a better grip on this scotsman fallacy:
atheism.about.com writes:
Category:Fallacy of Ambiguity, Fallacy of Presumption Websters writes: am”big”u”ousadj : capable of being understood in more than one way ” am”bi”gu”i”ty \'am-b-"gy--t\ n ” am”big”u”ous”ly adv Basically, this topic went in another direction from which I expected it to go! Instead of discussing the logic behind the philosophy of the fallacy, we now are talking about the very definition of "where" the goalposts SHOULD be. In other words, What IS a TRUE Christian? 
RiverRat writes: Being a Christian, or any other religion, is a matter of heart. It is a conscious decision you make in your heart. You are not born that way, so there is a choice involved.I could say I am a gay liberal, but does that make me a gay liberal? Either way, I was not born that way, and at any given moment based on my actions, I would not be either of those things. And thats the thing!  Interpretations of what makes an absolute definition are ambiguous.
Faith writes: There are very clear standards for being a Christian that make it possible and even necessary for someone who knows the standards to say that someone else is or isn't a "true Christian." And as you say, this is because it is not something one is born into, but a system of belief that one learns and practices according to those very standards. Yet there are different standards within different denominations. Some assert that only through the Catholic Church is salvation and "definition of True" possible. Some denominations assert that gay and Christian are mutually exclusive...while others assert that one is born gay and chooses to be a Christian. This topic is called Death of a Scotsman. Perhaps the argument is Death of an absolute...or Death of a Christian. We will all never agree on that common definition, although I have asserted that we at EvC need to strive to be One in Spirit. (In the manner of mutual respect and love, despite differences of opinion.)
Chiroptera writes: Basically, the fallacy refers to a form of equivocation. It applies whenever it is denied that a particular person is a member of a particular group just because otherwise it would invalidate the argument of the person making the denial. Christians that I have known often made the statement that "It does not matter what you or I believe. It matters what Jesus said." Thus...the Bible was the absolute standard.Others say that the creeds and edicts of the church are the standard. Faith writes: In other words, common sense should be our absolute---based on standards which to some of us are obvious. (However...to some of us, the sources and standards are entirely not obvious and are, in fact, irrelevant! There are some things that just clearly make a self-described Christian not a Christian. It is possible for people to disagree on these depending on their school of thought, but it's not an invalid concept. For instance, killing an abortionist is just so completely out of keeping with Christian doctrine there's no way that person can be a Christian. Christians sin all the time but committing an act like that and doing it IN THE NAME OF CHRIST, as they do, is simply a complete contradiction with what Christ stood for and taught. )
Faith writes: So by Faiths definition, there are those who know an absolute truth, and those who quite simply do not. I am inclined to agree with her, although this is an unpopular position. In my defense, I will quote this:
Yes that is the way it looks to an outsider but the outsider is wrong, it is a false accusation.If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything! So in order to clarify and avoid ambiguity, what should we stand for? This message has been edited by Phat, 02-16-2006 11:53 AM Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
This topic is still going??
I just gotta add a post! First off, nobody addressed my Bible question from my last post! To post it again:Lets turn the Scotsman fallacy on Jesus: NIV writes: John 4:21-24 Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." So in the context of Jesus addressing the Woman at the Well, what is a true worshiper? What is a true anything? Would a true American commit Road Rage?Would a true Politician do some of the things that are done? Would a true Christian sin? Of course. The Bible makes it clear that all have sinned and that we are prone to continually sin occasionally. Chiroptera brings up the word equivocation. Mr.Dictionary writes: So in the context of the apllication of the Scotsman fallacy of ambiguity, which as we remember: equivocatevb -cated; -cating 1 : to use misleading language 2 : to avoid giving a definite answer equivocation \-kwi-ve-ka-shen\ nMr.Dictionary writes: The Scotsman is true. All Christians sin. period. There can be no way to differentiate. When one proclaims us a Christian nation, it is fair game to call us a sinning Christian nation! True Dat! ambiguousadj : capable of being understood in more than one way ambiguity \am-be-gyu-e-te\ n ambiguously adv Remember this scripture? NKJV writes: Matt 5:25-26-- Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. If there is a debate focused on beliefs, behavior, and the human condition, it is far better for anyone who claims to be a Christian to agree with any accusations against Christians who behave badly rather than attempting to defend them. Let Jesus defend them. They sinned. Period. So do we all. This message has been edited by Phat, 02-17-2006 07:38 AM Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
And thus, due to enlightened thoughts from LogicalMike, I conclude that the idea of a True Christian stands. I know, because I am often not a true Christian myself. We can forgive the majority of "Christian" Catholics who did not participate in the Crusades....for them, it was much like many Americans who are not "fighting" in Iraq yet who wish to "support our troops!"
Back then, however, there was no CNN or FOX to give the latest updates---so people can be excused for not knowing what the politically and dogmatically minded armies of the church were doing. However....while we can say that no TRUE Christian would have gone to war, can we say that for them? A patriot is a patriot---and it is between them and God what they willfully do. Perhaps a zealot idolizes the church, a patriot idolizes the country, and a YEC idolizes a false ideology and agenda....but the main thing is if any of them are honestly consciously unaware of their idolatry and if they bow to Jesus Christ in their minds. No True Christian would ever make their mind and ideology more important than Christ! BTW Good POTM, Mike!  Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
RR writes: In what context? So can I claim I am black? I can claim that I am invisible. Now you see me...( ) Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties either, but right through every human heart, and through all human hearts. This line shifts. Inside us, it oscillates with the years. Even within hearts overwhelmed by evil, one small bridgehead of good is retained; and even in the best of all hearts, there remains a small corner of evil. --Alexander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024
