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Author | Topic: Death of a Scotsman (Re: the "no true Scotsman" fallacy) | |||||||||||||||||||||||
riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
What i regard as the responsibility of Christianity, are those atrocities that were done "in the name of God", and were not denounced until it was too late; and there are many of those. I think what it boils down to is the context in which the word "true" is being used. If one is not true to their faith, are they true?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Can you tell someone who vehemently believes that they are acting in a Christian way, that they are not true christians? Especially when their actions have been justified and sanctioned by the Church, and even at times by their interpretation of scripture (something which has been done for many things). I could believe I am black, but I am not. No true black would be white. The church does not define Christianity. If it did, there wouldn't be so many denominations. Interpretation, is an individual thing, not a Christian one.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Once participants in a debate agree on these basic terms the debate can move forward to finding out who is and who isn't one. The fallacy comes from the malleable nature of the definitions which each participant can meld into whatever proves whatever point he is trying to make. While there may be some gray areas, and then I guess I would understand the logic behind the NTS fallacy, but some things are so obvious as to what the definitions are, that the NTS fallacy cannot hold water in those areas. i.e. No-true-Scotsman would be of African decent, having been born and raised in Africa, only tp have visited Scotland once or twice. Obviously this person is not a true Scotsman. i.e. #2 Mass murderers who claim to be Christian. Either one of these people may at one point later on become a Scotsman, or become a Christian, but not at those moments, they are not, and the NTS fallacy cannot apply. period. People cannot just cry NTS, and have an end to a debate on whether Hitler was really Christian or not. It's like trying equate 2+2=Love. again, I think it comes down to the context of the word "true" and how it is being used. The word true in NTS, is different from the "true" in "true Christian". again, I say if you are true to your faith, and then go against those rules set forth by your faith, then are you true? But if we are talking about some silly thing like the verse that says if eating meat causes your brother to sin, then it is better not to. Or wearing lipstick, or short skirts. The bible explains those things, and it is left to scrutiny of the particular individual or denomination, and their relationship with Jesus. Same situation with a scotsman. But there is no book of Scotish rules. If you choose to be in the Army, there are defined rules. If you go against them, then your not true to the rules, making you an untrue soldier. If we look at the definition of untrue, I think it makes perfect sense, and furthers the failed logic behind the NTS fallacy.
quote: No true Christian would commit murder. I am perfectly within the boundries of the English language to make such a statement.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
When somebody uses the expression "No true Scotsman" in such an argument, that person is denying that the ordinary meaning of "Scotsman" is the right one, and insisting that his own personal (and subjective) meaning is the one that counts in this case. It's almost as if your not paying attention. I think I have rebuked all that already. There's nothing subjective about murder, and there is nothing subjective about living in Scotland.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
quote:I could believe I am black, but I am not. No true black would be white. That depends upon one's definitions of "black" and "white" Ever hear of the black folks who could "pass"? In that case, my name is actually Schrafinator, and I ride horses, because I write responses in this forum. And you are somehow responsible for my actions. NTS= no-true-schrafinator
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
The issue, as Modulous and others have pointed out, lies in the definition of Christianity. Without an indisputable definition of Christianity, and it seems there can be no indisputable definition, the "No True Christian" Defense cannot be valid. Doesn't make it invalid either. If nothing in science can be proven, then why not religion too? While there may be grey areas where I think the NTS fallacy may apply, there are clearly areas where this is not the case. There are a few indisputable rules that Christians should follow, otherwise they remain untrue to their faith.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
If you define "schrafinator" as someone who has that name, rides horses, and posts in this forum, then that is a clear definition that disqualifies you from being "schrafinator." NTS doesn't allow any definitions. I could steal your idendity and become you, does that make me you?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
A good point came to me while debating with schraf.
If there never were any true Christians int he history of the world, then there are no-true-scientists in the world. Also if the no-true-Scotsman theory is valid, then creation science is science, and all those that subscribe to the NTS fallacy better be prepared to admit that creation science is science. I satnd by my original thought, and is that the NTS fallacy is untrue, and cannot be applied to all things.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Got it now? I've always had it, but aparrently you do not. That whole "gobbedygook." Is not the exclusive logic behind the NTS.Try again. We have covered all points that you just brought up already.
There are universally agreed-upon criteria for who is considered a scientist. The same cannot be said about who is considered a Christian. No, and Yes.We've coverd it.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
No, it just means that you can't change definitions to suit your argument, like Christians usually do. Well crash, I actually agree with you. There are hypocrites, and there are gray areas. The whole thing is to vast to be summed up in some silly rule like the NTS fallacy. Especially groups of choice.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Really? Please clearly explain, line by line if required, how my recent example of the NTS fallacy is in error. Then I would just be repeating myself, it's all been covered, we don't need to go over it again. If you don't get it, then that's your right.
Keep in mind that the NTS fallacy is a fallacy, not a "theory". This thread is not about a theory, or a fallacy, it's about the logic of the NTS.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Please go back and read the OP.
The logic behind the fallacy, When applied to Christians, or groups of choice, is flawed, thats the whole point of this discussion, I guess you missed that? Why do I have to explain this, it's like you don't actually read whats in the thread, you just like to argue with me?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Excellent !
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
So can I claim I am black?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 446 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
In what context? Doesn't matter.
I can claim that I am invisible. Now you see me...( ) I can't see you.
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