Prophecy of Messiah: Isaiah 7

1. The apostle Paul, when defending himself before a crowd of Jews addressed them in the Hebrew tongue, indicating that most of the people he was addressing understood the language. Acts 21:40, 22:22. Pilate wrote above Jesus on the cross, the message in three languages, the Hebrew, the Greek and the Latin, indicating that a significant number of the folks reading would be Hebrew literate.3. The voice which came to Paul at his conversion was in Hebrew.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Clearly your "reading" is based on preconceptions, since it fails to even deal with the context of Isaiah 7 in the English transdlations.You use Matthew's short out of context quote of a translation of Isaiah as the only rule on how to interpet Isaiah. You put this ahead of the Hebrew text of Isaiah itself - not only the words used, but the context. How can you justify that without appealing to preconceptions ?The Greek can be dealt with easily. It cannot override the Hevrew, nor can it override the context of the original. Both indicate that "virgin" was not the intended meaning, therefore the Greek is wrong. Since it comes from a translation generally regarded as being of poor quality the Greek use of parthenos can be taken as one more error on the part of the translator.And one more question. The last time you left you conceded that the Bible says what it says. Why do you now deny that Isaiah 7 says what it says ??

The early greek and the later greek had a meaning change for the term Parthenos. If you look at Genesis 34, parthenos was refered to Dinah after she was 'defiled'.However, if you look at the term ALMAH, there are several incidences where it is used with someone who was not a virgin. For example, in the song of solomon uses almah in a very erotic, non-virgin setting.What does some very very conservative say? So, even that source will say that Almah does not always mean virgin, (although it can refer to a virgin).How about, let us look at Isaiah 7:14 in CONTEXT with the text that is
right after it. Let us look at Isaiah 8:3-4 Ok. this shows that Isaiah went to his wife, and got her pregnant. The sign to King Ahaz was 'For before the child has to knowlege to cry, my father and my mother'. (i.e.. a time period before the child can speak), The king of Assyria will get kicked out of Damascus and Samaria. This is quite clear. Isaiah was giving a sign to King Ahaz,
and it was somethign that was IMMEDIATE, not something that happened 600 years later. A sign that happened so far into the future would have been meaningless to King Ahaz.Now.. how about looking to see if there is any confirmation about having the son of Isaiah be the 'sign' for king Ahaz. We find that,
just a few paragraphs later, in Isaiah 8:18 In this sentance, Isaiah confirms that yes, it is his son that was talked about in 8:3-4, and his wife in 7:14. THis is all items that
Isaiah it talking about after the fect, mind you..about predictions he had that came true. While the woman getting pregant, and giving birth was a sign, it was a sign to King Ahaz, and was fullfilled at that time. It was not a prophecy for 600 years later. It was not a sign for 'the messiah'. That concept really didn't appear until the 2nd century B.C.E.

If, two hundred years before Christ, Jews in general had understood Hebrew, there would have been no call for them to create a Greek translation of their sacred text. But they did, and it became wildly popular among Jews throughout the world; a world dominated by people who spoke Greek.If, during the time of Christ, Jews in general had understood Hebrew, there would have been no call for the Apostles to create the New Testament in Greek. But they did, and it became wildly popular among Jews throughout the world; a world dominated by the Greek Empire.I will avoid boring the savvy reader with an historical review of the history of Bible translation. Suffice it to say that the Roman Empire called for production of a Latin Bible; and the British Empire called for production of an English Bible; and, of course, the Americans required a Bible in their own unique language. Aside from this: Every religion and denomination of a religion, requires its own special version of the Bible.Why can't everyone simply learn to read God's handwriting? All Bibles include terms and concepts which are difficult for people of another race and time. Many terms remain untranslated from the foreign language originals. Some of these terms are of obscure meaning; grasped by scholars but impossible to translate directly. Some terms are left intact because they have become familiar through prolonged usage in worship service (whether or not the worshipers understand the meaning).Virgin is such a word. It is Latin, really. There is no meaningfully equivalent sound in Hebrew or Greek. Otherwise, there would have been no need for Latin speaking peoples to translate it. Even so, my Latin dictionary makes it clear that the people of Rome did not give it the meaning which so many Americans do. To those who penned the Latin Bible, "virginity" meant girlhood and a "virgin" could be a young married woman. If you study the way Parthenos is used in the New Testament, I believe you will find that it is not inconsistent with the Latin's perception of their own word: virginis.My Thorndike Barnhart offers, as the second definition of "virgin," The American Heritage Dictionary does not offer this option, which suggests to me that the editors may be unaware of the scholarship surrounding this word, or are prejudiced against any definition which may dilute the musky Christian odor which this term has come to exude.Once used by Latin speaking peoples in reference to any girl, irrespective of sexual experience, the word virgin has become something which, in ancient time, it was not.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

1. The Jews, being very nationality oriented cherished and used their Hebrew, most likely being at least bilingual, Greek being the popular international language since Alex the Great advance it vigorously in his world empire.
2. The reason the NT was in Greek was because Christianity was to be global rather than simply Jewish. Jesus, the prophets and the apostles of Jesus all attested to this. Thus, Greek being still the prominent international language was chosen to be the language of the NT. What do you think about my point that Paul addressed the crowd of Jews in Hebrew?But the great majority of the usage of these virgin words in both the OT and NT were to signify virginity as per context and to signify young woman was the exception. Correct? Likely an older edition of the TB dictionary would not have offered the option either, assuming your edition is a recent one. Of course the primary #1 TB definition is surely the same as the American Heritage one.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

quote:

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But the great majority of the usage of these virgin words in both the OT and NT were to signify virginity as per context and to signify young woman was the exception. Correct?

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Did not you read? The meaning of the word 'virgin' in that time period did not mean a sexual pure person.And, when it comes to Isaiah 7:14, by the context, it does not mean a sexual pure person. It means a young woman, and is specifically refering to Isaiah's wife.This message has been edited by ramoss, 03-01-2006 09:22 PM

Long before Jesus appeared on the scene, Hebrew had become a dead language. Only a few advanced scholars were familiar with it to the extent of being able to offer credibly authoritative translations. Kids learned Aramaic at home and Greek in school. In Jesus' day, the official language of Empire was Latin, although many were still fluent in Greek. In the time of Christ, Latin was rapidly supplanting Greek as the international language. The future of Christianity was destined to be carried out primarily in Latin. The Greek text does not seem to be identifying a particular language so much as it is referring to an un-named dialect being used by the Hebrew people. The Greek Testament actually uses the term dialektos. The New Living Translation (NLT) reads:

quote:

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"... he addressed them in their own language, Aramaic."

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This seems a reasonable rendering based on what is known of Jewish life in those times, AND the fact that Thayer flatly states that this was not a reference to the language in which the Old Testament was written. hereI don't think so but if you'd like to chart that, I'd be glad to consider it with you.

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

I don't want to belabor this language thing, but it is needful to understand it relative to the topic debate regarding the word usages, so I believe we are pretty much on topic so far.I found this link which states that though it was not the common spoken vernacular, it was used very extensively in literature and religion. In order for this to be the case, the Jews of Jesus's day would likely have been at least bilingual. http://www.jewish-languages.org/hebrew.html The NLT is by no means a literal tranlation. Thayer is wrong. I have both the Received Text (Textus Receptus) and Nestlies Alexandrian Greek/English Interlinears. Both of these major texts show conclusively that the correct rendering is not "dialectos" but "Ebraide" (Hebrew) in Acts 22:40 where he addressed the crowd in Hebrew. Where did ever come up with "dialectos??" All you need do if you have a concordance is look up the word "virgin" and check out the context from which it came in each text location. You need to use the word "virgin" to find them in your concordance since that's what the translators translated the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts into in the major translations which have a concordance.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Indeed. The same may be said of Latin usage in the Roman church. You wouldn't purposely withhold information would you?The Textus Receptus reading is as follows:

quote:

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"EBRAIDI DIALEKTO"

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And it's Acts 21:40. Please try to avoid misdirecting our viewers. I know how it is done, and it's a lot like work! The burden of evidence is yours my friend. The chart is yours to construct. And the reward should be well worth the effort. Yes?

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Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

Buzz,If Isaiah 7:14 in Greek (parthenos) is 'virgin', why is it used for
a term for a woman that has been raped (see Genesis 34, diniah was refered to as a 'parthenos' after she was 'defiled'.How do you accont for the use of 'parthenos' in by homer in the Illiad, where someone was call 'Actor, son of the Astyoche, the honored maiden (parthenos), and in Aristophanes Cloud, where a 'parthnos' exposed her child on the moutain top. How do you explain the term 'Parthnos' by Sophicales in Trachiniae, who refered to Iole after she slept with hercules.Obviously, the term 'parthnos' did not mean sexual pure in the time frame that the Septauguint was translated.

How does this diminish the point made in the link that the Jew's learning and literature were in Hebrew, requiring the need to know the language? I missed the word dialecto as it was on the last line by itself in my interlinear and being tired during the wee AM hours, I missed it. However, this makes no difference in my point since the truth is that we have a phrase of two words which make my point; not yours. That phrase is "Hebrew dialect" (EBRAIDE DIALECTO) This is not as you are arguing, the Aramic as depicted in your very liberal and non-literal NLT. OK, my friend. Here is page one of the 77 references. For the most part the context of these speak for themselves to make my point. Btw it's using the American Standard Version, ASV which I use, but you can go to the link and bring up any verion you wish. When you get to the bottom of this page, click more results and thereafter, simply click "next."Genesis 24:16
And the damsel was very fair to look upon, a virgin, neither had any man known her. And she went down to the fountain, and filled her pitcher, and came up.
Genesis 24:15-17 (in Context) Genesis 24 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 22:16
And if a man entice a virgin that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
Exodus 22:15-17 (in Context) Exodus 22 (Whole Chapter)
Exodus 22:17
If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.
Exodus 22:16-18 (in Context) Exodus 22 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 21:3
and for his sister a virgin, that is near unto him, that hath had no husband; for her may he defile himself.
Leviticus 21:2-4 (in Context) Leviticus 21 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 21:13
And he shall take a wife in her virginity.
Leviticus 21:12-14 (in Context) Leviticus 21 (Whole Chapter)
Leviticus 21:14
A widow, or one divorced, or a profane woman, a harlot, these shall he not take: but a virgin of his own people shall he take to wife.
Leviticus 21:13-15 (in Context) Leviticus 21 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 22:14
and lay shameful things to her charge, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came nigh to her, I found not in her the tokens of virginity;
Deuteronomy 22:13-15 (in Context) Deuteronomy 22 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 22:15
then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate;
Deuteronomy 22:14-16 (in Context) Deuteronomy 22 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 22:17
and, lo, he hath laid shameful things to her charge, saying, I found not in thy daughter the tokens of virginity; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city.
Deuteronomy 22:16-18 (in Context) Deuteronomy 22 (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 22:19
and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
Deuteronomy 22:18-20 (in Context) Deuteronomy 22 (Whole Chapter)
More results from American Standard VersionBibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 150 versions and 50 languages.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

You do realise that many of those passages do not use the term 'almah' in the hebrew, but rather the term bethulah??

Hi Ramos.
1. I believe the Hebrew has less words than the Greek, so I don't know about comparing them as you are, but your text is clearly one of the less frequent references where the context of the word is not applicable to virgin.
2. I'm not arguing that the Hebrew and Greek words for virgin cannot apply to a young woman perse. My point is that it is more frequently used relative to a virgin in the Bible, and the contexts bear that out.Edited for typo.This message has been edited by buzsaw, 03-02-2006 08:19 PM

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

Results so far -All your references have - b@thuwlah listed as the hebrew
in Deu 22:15 damsel is listed as na`arah
while virginity is b@thuwliym

The key point the word you were pointing to in the hebrew is not Almah for any of those.And, for context, if you read Isaiah 7:14, it is not about someone who was 'sexually pure' at birth, but Isaiah's wife. You have not addressed that particular point.