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Author Topic:   "...except in the case of rape or incest."
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 145 of 301 (295791)
03-15-2006 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
03-15-2006 10:16 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
quote:
... in a democracy....
LudoRephaim lives in the United States, though.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 03-15-2006 10:16 PM ringo has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 301 (295795)
03-15-2006 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by NosyNed
03-15-2006 11:15 PM


Re: not about sin
quote:
This suggests that they consider it ok to "murder" someone if they are the innocent result of a rape.
Yes, it certainly suggests to me that the real issue is punishing women for having sex outside of marriage.
-
quote:
I don't recall that anyone answered that.
Funny thing is that even though I am pro-abortion I can think of a legitimate justification for someone who is "pro-life".

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by NosyNed, posted 03-15-2006 11:15 PM NosyNed has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 301 (295978)
03-16-2006 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 9:52 AM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
quote:
No different from Atheist Zealouts (we call them COMMUNISTS)that killed those that didn't agree with the status quo in Russia, China, North Korea and elsewhere with a communist dictatorship.
Actually, in these places that you mentioned, atheism was not the central, driving tenet of the prevailing ideology of the regimes, unlike many of the atraocities committed in the name of Christianity (and other faiths). But that isn't the topic here -- you are welcome to start a new thread for this topic. (Although it has already been done to death -- ugh!)

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 9:52 AM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 2:33 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 301 (295998)
03-16-2006 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 2:33 PM


Re: NO Forgiveness?
quote:
It doesn't matter what their driven tenets where.
Actually it does matter if we are going to decide whether the comparison apt.
-
quote:
It is off topic, but Crashfrog brought it up.
I know. And I replied to you even though it was off-topic. That is the problem when the thread starts to derail. People may recognize that it is going off-topic, but they cannot resist disputing the points made. If you must respond, then give a quick one or two sentence rebuttal, point out that it is off-topic, and then refuse to continue in that vein. (Which I did not do myself, as you can see. *sigh* No one likes a hypocrite.)

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 2:33 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:01 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 180 of 301 (296009)
03-16-2006 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by LudoRephaim
03-16-2006 3:13 PM


Moderators are gonna get us!
quote:
But my point is that atheism is not spotless in it's history.
Actually, Ludo, unless people have committed bad acts in the name of atheism (not necessarily explicitly), then atheism is spotless.
-
quote:
The fact is that atheists where killing mass numbers of people during the 20th century, just as Christians have done so throughout the ages.
So have dark-haired people. Dark-haired people have killed mass numbers of people in the 20th century. There is a difference between an characteristic being merely incidental, and a characteristic being either the driving force or the justification of an act.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-16-2006 3:13 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 301 (296242)
03-17-2006 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by LudoRephaim
03-17-2006 12:16 PM


Re: sources
Hi, Ludo.
One difference between the site that schraf cited and a typical anti-abortion site is that shraf's site lists the sources of the information used. If you want, you can actually look up the papers that are cited and see whether the information is taken out of context and, more importantly, determine whether the methodology is sound; you can also find out whether the sources are peer-reviewed journals (or reports citing peer-reviewed journals), and so the information has passed through a process where experts in the field evaluate the methodologies used and whether the methodologies can lead to the conclusions that are drawn.
This reminds me of an incident that I have already related here. On another message board someone claimed that women who have abortions are more likely to have emotional problems. He cited an anti-abortion web site; as you point out, it is reasonable to wonder whether the site's bias has led them to pull information out of context or to cite poorly conducted studies. Rather than look up a pro-abortion site (which would have the same potential problems), I decided to go directly to Pub Med to find out what was in the actual research literature.
I already knew the claim was bogus; what I expected to find was, as an estimate, less than 30% of the studies would show a correlation between poor mental health and abortion and the rest no correlation. Instead, I did not find a single study at all that supported the idea that abortion is emotionally traumatic for the woman. Every single study that I found (I will stress, though, that I am not an expert at looking things up) concluded either that there was no correlation between mental health and abortion, or that negative mental health effects correlated strongly with the religious beliefs of the mother.
I have little doubt that if we were to look at the actual research literature, that shraf's claims would be verified. If you want, you can do a literature search yourself (that would be a useful skill to learn in any case) and report what you find. If what you find contradicts shraf's claims then maybe someone (probably schraf herself) will be compelled to do her own search, and then this discussion would actually become based on facts.
Of course, ultimately whether abortion is right or wrong is a moral argument, and so the facts may have little bearing on this (except, of course, that we can discard arguments that have their basis on incorrect premises).
Edited to correct a typo (and a pretty funny one, too).
This message has been edited by Chiroptera, 17-Mar-2006 05:39 PM

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by LudoRephaim, posted 03-17-2006 12:16 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

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