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Author
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Topic: The Fires of Hell Have Gone Out: No Eternal Torment
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 123 of 300 (310052)
05-07-2006 5:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 121 by jaywill
05-07-2006 5:03 PM
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Re: The key is
jaywill writes: "Eternal punishment" in the passage equals "eternal fire". We've been through that. The fire is eternal - the units of fuel that are fed into it are not. They are consumed - destroyed - for all eternity.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 121 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 5:03 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 125 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 5:26 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 124 of 300 (310053)
05-07-2006 5:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 120 by iano
05-07-2006 4:59 PM
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Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
iano writes: If people are not the fuel then the fire has no reason to go out. Who said the people are not the fuel? In the metaphor of earthly Gehenna, the dead certainly are the fuel - and it is their consumption/destruction that is emphasized.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 120 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 4:59 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 126 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 5:32 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 127 of 300 (310057)
05-07-2006 5:34 PM
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Reply to: Message 125 by jaywill
05-07-2006 5:26 PM
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Re: The key is
jaywill writes: And "Well, Revelation is too symbolic you know?" is not an answer. That's the answer, whether you like it or not. If we can't agree on whether the Revelation refers to the future of the 1st-century Jews or to our future, trying to discuss it's symbolism in this context is utterly useless. If your case is so strong, make it outside the Revelation.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 125 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 5:26 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 130 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 5:49 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 129 of 300 (310059)
05-07-2006 5:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 126 by iano
05-07-2006 5:32 PM
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Re: Eternal Fires Gone Out?
iano writes: God, the eternal flame. If he can do it with a bush he can do it with a person The question is not whether He could. The question is whether He does. The pertinent metaphor here is the earthly Gehenna, not the burning bush. You can't go willy-nilly cherry-picking attributes of one metaphor to un-explain another one. Stick to the metaphor in the OP.
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 126 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 5:32 PM | | iano has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 131 of 300 (310063)
05-07-2006 6:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 130 by jaywill
05-07-2006 5:49 PM
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jaywill writes: What is the writing conveying? That they were consumed so as to be no more? Or that 1,000 years latter they were still undergoing torment? Is the 1000 years meant to be tken literally? Is the fire itself meant to be taken literally? You can not be nearly so "clear" on what the writer is portraying as you pretend to be.
How come their fire will NOT be quenched? I thought the fire is quenched when they are all burnt up? I think purpledawn covered that. A fire "goes out" when it runs out of fuel. It is "quenched" when somebody puts it out. Two different things. A fire that we can not put out will still stop burning when it runs out of fuel.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 130 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 5:49 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 132 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 6:15 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 133 of 300 (310071)
05-07-2006 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 132 by jaywill
05-07-2006 6:15 PM
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jaywill writes: So Matthew 25:41 really means "Go away from Me, you who are cursed into the [TEMPORARY] fire prepared for the devil and his angels?" This is getting tiresome. I have explained that fire is eternal in the sense that it can be rekindled as needed. A particular fire will burn out when it runs out of fuel. Please read the thread before you bring up the same nonsense over and over again.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by jaywill, posted 05-07-2006 6:15 PM | | jaywill has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 136 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 6:51 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 143 of 300 (310089)
05-07-2006 7:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 136 by iano
05-07-2006 6:51 PM
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iano writes: Are you familiar with the concept of infinity Ringo? In the Bible? Book, chapter and verse, please.
A particular fire will burn out when it runs out of fuel. Which presupposes the fuel will run out. Would there be an infinite number of people judged?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 6:51 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 150 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:11 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 152 of 300 (310103)
05-07-2006 8:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 150 by iano
05-07-2006 8:11 PM
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iano writes: But we have no reason to suppose a finite amount of fuel will ever burn out. Sure we do. A finite amount of fuel consists of a finite number of molecules which can combine with a finite number of oxygen molecules. When the last fuel molecule is gone, the fire is out. Your "slower and slower and slower" scheme does not apply.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 150 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:11 PM | | iano has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 154 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:37 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 156 of 300 (310117)
05-07-2006 8:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 154 by iano
05-07-2006 8:37 PM
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iano writes: Your projecting earthly happenings into the spiritual realm. No, I'm extending the Gehenna image to its logical conclusion. Your musings about "heavenly bodies" are irrelevant.
The rubbish doesn't cease to exist - it is simply reduced down to its most worthless form. You cannot destroy ash. So you're claiming that the ashes undergo eternal torment?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 154 by iano, posted 05-07-2006 8:37 PM | | iano has not replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 210 of 300 (310770)
05-10-2006 2:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 209 by jaywill
05-10-2006 12:32 PM
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Hope
... if there is any possibility of hope for those whose names are not recorded in the book of life, I don't think God has told us. I think there are definite "possibilities of hope". Two that come to mind are:
quote:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
and:
quote:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
No mention of having to be recorded in the "book of life".
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 209 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2006 12:32 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 211 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2006 6:48 PM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 212 of 300 (310860)
05-10-2006 7:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 211 by jaywill
05-10-2006 6:48 PM
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Re: Hope
jaywill writes: I don't think this matters. Very interesting. In Message 209 you saw "no possibility of hope". I gave you two possibilities of hope, just of the top of my head. You ignore one and say the other "doesn't matter". I think God's opinion does matter. If He doesn't want it to happen, it ain't gonna happen.
When the Spirit of God is close to your heart prompting you to believe in Christ and receive Him, that is the time to do so. In my second ray of hope, Matthew 25, it is the ones who do well who are saved, not those who "believe" and loudly profess, "Lord! Lord!"
One may lock himself into the hardness from which there is no return. Indeed. And one may pretend to look for hope, yet close his eyes to it.
Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 211 by jaywill, posted 05-10-2006 6:48 PM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 215 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2006 4:58 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 220 of 300 (311023)
05-11-2006 12:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 215 by jaywill
05-11-2006 4:58 AM
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Re: Hope
jaywill writes: But this verse has to do with entering into the reward of the millennial kingdom. It does not refer to eternal redemption and forgiveness. Not true.
quote:
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
quote:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
You may have your own interpretation about a "millennial kingdom" but the plain text of the Bible disagrees with you:
quote:
Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
It applies to all nations - not just a select few - and it applies to eternal reward/punishment.
perhaps you are right that I shouldn't hold out a prospect of hope when I see none. That's not what I said. I said you should open your eyes and see what's plainly before them. (However, the subject of hope is straying off-topic. If you'd like a cure for your hopelessness, I'd be glad to discuss it in the appropriate place.)
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by jaywill, posted 05-11-2006 4:58 AM | | jaywill has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 224 by jaywill, posted 05-12-2006 6:04 AM | | ringo has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 225 of 300 (311384)
05-12-2006 10:52 AM
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Reply to: Message 224 by jaywill
05-12-2006 6:04 AM
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Re: Hope
jaywill writes: I don't think you can "cure" my devotion to the word of God by the history of long and tortured twistings of the message of Jesus that you have displayed on this forum.  I don't have much "hope" of instilling any hope in you - but anybody who reads our posts can see who's doing the twisting. I "hope" to instill some hope in them, that they can avoid eternal torment without loud professions of "Lord! Lord!" So, back to the topic. Do you have any evidence for eternal torment that doesn't depend on your particular interpretation of the Revelation?
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 224 by jaywill, posted 05-12-2006 6:04 AM | | jaywill has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 228 of 300 (311678)
05-13-2006 12:30 AM
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Reply to: Message 226 by Buzsaw
05-12-2006 9:32 PM
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Re: Down to Brass Tacks
buzsaw writes: I've studied the Bible daily for 60 years and I see no significant problem at all with contradictions. About forty years ago, a new church was being built in Winnipeg. The roofing contractor had their motto emblazoned on their trucks: "Over 150 years experience in the roofing business". They started the last row of shingles at the ridge, but when they came to the end of the roof, they were a foot and a half too low. The whole side had to be removed and redone. The moral of the story: You can do something for 150 years and still screw it up. 
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 226 by Buzsaw, posted 05-12-2006 9:32 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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ringo
Member (Idle past 441 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Message 236 of 300 (311733)
05-14-2006 1:33 PM
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Reply to: Message 229 by jaywill
05-13-2006 8:09 AM
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Re: Hope
jaywill writes: Do you have any evidence of me being incorrect that is not based on 1.) Favoring the synoptics over John I don't "favor" the synoptics over John. I just don't ignore what the synoptics say. You have to twist what Matthew said to fit your scenario.
2.) Dismissiing Revelation as too symbolic and should be discarded
I have asked you before to STOP MAKING THAT FALSE ACCUSATION.
3.) Assuming that 19 centries of Bible exposition is biased. Pretty clearly there is bias involved, since we have a Catholic Church, several Orthodox Churches and multitudes of Protestant Churches, all with their own particular bias.
4.) Denying the Deity of Christ Where on earth did you come up with that ludicrous false accusation?
5.) Holding Old and New Testaments have nothing to do with each other. Where on earth did you come up with that ludicrous accusation? I have said that every book of the Bible is independent - i.e. you can't arbitrarily choose one as the "secret answer key" to decode all the others. The books are all interrelated - they all cover some of the same topics - but it is fruitless to try to interpret any of them solely on the basis of the others.
7.) Denying Christ as the Messiah It seems pretty clear that Jesus doesn't fit the Old Testament prophecies, but I don't see how that has anything remotely to do with this topic.
8.) Assuming Paul corrupted the gospel of Christ and knew nothing. It's not an "assumption", it's a conclusion - and I wouldn't put it that strongly. I'd say Jesus' words trump Paul's - always. So, if you have any evidence for eternal torment that doesn't depend on your particular interpretation of the Revelation - why don't you show it to us and keep the rest of this childish ranting to yourself? 
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| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 229 by jaywill, posted 05-13-2006 8:09 AM | | jaywill has replied |
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