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Author Topic:   Why Evolution is science
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 148 of 200 (379475)
01-24-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by AndyB
01-24-2007 9:13 AM


Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
Evolution is not a science for one very simple reason - the only universally agreed definition of "evolution" is:
I don't know how you determine what definitions are "universally agreed", but the idea that scientists don't have any deeper understanding of evolution except as "change" is ludicrous and betrays a significant lack of research on your part.
Obviously, in language, words are slightly fuzzy, and science is a lot more concerned with testing hypotheses and developing explanatory models than it is with developing the one true definition that everybody is supposed to memorize and never change. This is true of all scientific fields so, for any scientific term, there's no such thing as a truly "universally accepted definition."
The fact that you would single out evolution and impeach it alone from this universal characteristic is further evidence that your arguments are driven entirely by ideology, rather than evidence. For my own part, I usually define evolution as:
"The scientific understanding of the history and diversity of life on Earth as a result of descent with modification from a common ancestor through natural selection and random mutation, as well as other natural processes."
But, really - why would scientists need to have a rigid definition of the term? What would they do with it? Pin it up on whiteboards? What would that accomplish?
Everybody knows what evolution is - it's the scientific model for the history of life and the origin of species. And sometimes the word is appropriated to describe the history of other things that change over time, but that's just a metaphor. Regardless of how you state a definition of evolution, it always means the same thing when you're talking about living things - random mutation and natural selection causing changes to successive generations of organisms through time.
Once you go beyond that simple definition things start to get fuzzy.
The real world is fuzzy. If you're not comfortable with a little fuzz then you have no business in the sciences. Best to stick with theology, or philosophy, or economics, or any other completely made-up human endeavors that require absolutely no evidential basis for their reasoning.
But to assert that something stops being a science just because of your ignorance is folly. Luckily, evolutionary biologists continue to get the work done, regardless of whether or not cranks on the internet think they can.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 9:13 AM AndyB has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 10:47 AM crashfrog has replied
 Message 152 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 12:41 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 150 of 200 (379478)
01-24-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Chiroptera
01-24-2007 10:47 AM


Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
Or mathematics. That's what I did.
Wasn't it mathematicians who came up with so-called "fuzzy logic"? Plus, at least mathematics as a field has rigor. Not so with the fields I listed. In math, poor models are discarded and forgotten. In philosophy and theology and economics, poor models are enshrined.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Chiroptera, posted 01-24-2007 10:47 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 157 of 200 (379544)
01-24-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by AndyB
01-24-2007 12:41 PM


Re: Why the issue about Darwin?
That ISN'T what I atually wrote.
In fact, I quoted what you actually wrote, which pretty much makes your charge of misrepresentation a falsehood.
We do know how to read around here, despite the assertions of science's enemies to the contrary.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by AndyB, posted 01-24-2007 12:41 PM AndyB has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 163 of 200 (382377)
02-04-2007 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 159 by Oliver
02-04-2007 1:10 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science
We certainly can observe speciation and adaptation which falls under micro-evolution but we cannot observe or test physiological changes which occur that result in a totally different creature.
What's most interesting is that there aren't any "totally different creatures"; all living things on Earth share, at some level, similarities with even the most utterly different organisms you can imagine. Plants and animals have similarities. Vertebrates and invertebrates. Multicellular and unicellular.
However you want to draw the boundaries, there are similarities. The great thing about evolution is that it both explains why this is true, and explains why some organisms are more similar than others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 1:10 PM Oliver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 1:59 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 181 of 200 (382413)
02-04-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Oliver
02-04-2007 1:59 PM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science
for example a dog and a fish.
Which both have bones, a central vertebrate nervous system, a closed circulatory system, calciferous teeth, aerobic cellular metabolism, and generate amino acid polypeptides based on the same substitution codes.
Coming back to your post, on what basis do you believe that creature x evolved into creature y (x and y denoting two different creatures) when we simply cannot observe the changes since they happened over millions and millions of years according to Evolution theory?
Well, we can observe the changes over millions of years; the fossil record provides a static record of changes that have occured in the past.
Moreover, we can see it happen in the present, too; we make direct observations of new species arising from old ones.
Consider that certain assumptions not based on science have been made in order that evolution seem more plausible.
Untrue. Evolution is based on scientific evidence, not assumptions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Oliver, posted 02-04-2007 1:59 PM Oliver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Oliver, posted 02-06-2007 9:43 AM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 193 of 200 (382910)
02-06-2007 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by Oliver
02-06-2007 9:43 AM


Re: Macro-Evo not Science
But that doesn't prove millions of years of change
No, the fossil record proves about a billion years of change.
The fossil record is very incomplete.
Sure. Why wouldn't it be? Even an incomplete record is of use, though.
Why is it always assumed to be
over millions of years?
It's not assumed; it's concluded from the evidence. I mean how else do you fuse a mineralized skeleton to the inside of an unbroken stone that's millions of years old? You have to form the stone around it. Which means that the skeleton has to be as least as old as the rock.
Again this does not indicate macro-evolution or prove millions of years.
What do you mean? How doesn't direct observation of macroevolution prove macroevolution? That's nonsensical. Are you saying that just because we see it happen now doesn't mean that it happened back then?
Why not? What's so different about the past? All the other basic physical principles seem to have operated identically in the past. What evidence do you have to propose an exception in this case?
Products of variation and adaptation.
Right. Which produce what you call "macroevolution." We've literally watched it happen right before our eyes.
The whole idea is an assumption. I stick to real science..
Clearly you don't know the first thing about what real science is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Oliver, posted 02-06-2007 9:43 AM Oliver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Oliver, posted 02-07-2007 4:49 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
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