Why Are Christians Afraid To Doubt?

Yes, we should. Reasonable people realize that it's better to be mostly right and getting righter, than to stick to the same eternally wrong story.People who don't change their minds in the face of new evidence aren't being reasonable. The only reason to prefer unchanging dogma over the ongoing process of science is because one has a big problem with uncertainty.I suggest you learn to live with a little uncertainty. Sure. We change our minds in the face of new evidence, like reasonable people.But in the meantime, science has accomplished a lot. You're reading this message on the results of science. In every scientific discipline, knowledge doubles every few years. What new knowledge has religion produced? None whatsoever.Honestly, in a world where we're communicating on computers via satellites in space, where diseases that once ravaged humanity now exist only in test tubes; where the crippled are made whole, not by one wandering savior but by hundreds of thousands of mortal doctors, it's ridiculous to fault science for being an ongoing process.It's that ongoing process that results in truth and knowledge. Science is alive and changing. Religion is dead because it never changes. It's not something to be "relied upon"; because it is unchanging, it can be relied upon for nothing at all. Nonsense. There's an abundance of evidence for that feat. There's no evidence at all for the ministry of Jesus; the earliest written record of his life comes at least 70 years after his death - and the death of every eyewitness. Don't confuse "trust" and "faith." When I drive a vehicle over a bridge, I have evidence about the safety of both of those things. That's trust.But God? Jesus? There's no evidence that either is trustworthy. To put one's confidence in those figures is faith - belief in what one has no evidence for. Choose faith if you will - it's no matter to me - but there's absolutely nothing reasonable about it. (For many people, that's the selling point.)

Phat: Let's hope not!It's like I said to Mike in another thread... The creation is finshed Phat. But we broke it and twisted it. He is offering to shepperd us who wish to be restored, back into the original intent of this, now dying world.Amen?Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Ringo:You go ahead and save the world then Ringo... I wish you luck in solving that puzzle, since you don't think it can be known. Throw a few darts onto an invisible target...I don't trust my own capability that much. I believe the original designer knows the way home.It's not our work to finish or restore, but His.ps.(yes... I hear myself Phat I was just telling my wife last night, how preaching the truth (which is universal to us all, is always getting in my own face as well. It is not proscriptive, it is prescriptive...)

Well, that is what He told us to do:

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Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

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(but He didn't mean you should blather on endlessly about things you don't understand). So far, your understanding of what I think has proven to be zero. Nonsense. He clearly told us to do it - "finish" or "restore" or whatever semantics you try to sneak in.The work is there to be done. The questions must be asked.

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Ringo:Exactly!It's a simple equation... Ringo + thinking = zero.Allow me to demonstrate...Ringo:And the Gospel is this in it's entirety. The Gospel, is that our religious works will not save us... Our actions are only an outward sign of piety and are no justification for proof of salvation. It is our heart (spirit) that is corrupt and condemned and needs restoration. The gospel, is that Jesus has overcome the world, not us. And that only through Him, can we be saved by a new spiritual birth. That His work... in us, being justified by faith in Him, is the saving grace of God, and will manifest good works from within.The only 'doing' to be done, is to believe, be reborn (and have the plank removed from one's own eye) and then preach that gospel.That is what I do... I preach!And I am told again and again to stop..Because it is an offense to those who are religious, and self-apointed do-gooders.

This is not an example of clever debating. It leaves open the possibility that you do not understand Ringo's thinking since you haven't shown that you do. That would be a valid rebuttal of Ringo's suggestion : - "So far, your understanding of what I think has proven to be zero." You could at a minimum ask him to show what makes him think that.This is also not inline with forum guidelines. If you continue to post what you think is smart but is, instead, childish you will receive some suspensions.

You don't understand what it means to "believe" because you're afraid to let go of the dogma and think. Believing in Somebody doesn't mean believing that He exists/existed. It means doing what He wanted you to do:

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Mat 25:35 For I was hungry, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

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Those are all actions, not empty words. Spiritual rebirth and growth is an ongoing thing. It's not a snap-your-fingers-and-you-have-all-the-answers thing. You have to be constantly learning or you wind up like Rob, with nothing to say but the same boring platitudes and childish insults. It isn't "have your mommy remove the plank from your eye":

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Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

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It's active. You do it, so you can do the same for your brother.Don't hide under the bed waiting for a rescuer, a saviour. Get up and do something.

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Nosy, Did you notice the little in my reply to Ringo?We've had our own fun with pure wit and cynicism, irrespective of disagreements.With all good wit and comedy, there is an element of truth....Yes. But if you, or he, thinks that I am condemning and writing off such human error as beyond hope for the mere pleasure of belittling (as is done frequently among other members here), then you misunderstand the role of judgement in the Christian context.You are mistaking Biblical rebuke and judgement, for human condemnation and public humiliation.I impose no power...What I offered was not childish, but so uniquely effective, that it invoked this very childish threat from you (cloaked in noble terms).Do you think Ringo cannot defend himself? Is he in danger of conversion?I don't banish or suspend people for speaking their mind openly and in broad daylight.I leave that to the chief priests and pharisees. They have the power, and will use it to still a rebellion, and maintain their control over the masses.They tell me I am free, except when they disaprove.They are the moral dictators and absolutists who oppose and exalt themselves.

Ringo:But your not hungry Ringo. You think you are rich, but you are poor naked and blind.You are a stranger... But you don't want to eat Christ's flesh, or drink his blood. You are sick, and you are in prison, but you like it there...You don't want me to visit you or do for you what I am commanded to do... preach the gospel.These are spiritual conditions first, the physical is secondary. But you only see the literal physical element because your spiritual eyes are blinded by sin.It is you who are the fundamentalist and literal interpreter of the Word. You don't see the wholeness of it all (which is when it begins to make sense). I do... and that's why they're going to banish me...Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

On the contrary, I've done that hundreds of times. Please stop making assumptions. You're really bad at it. Didn't say I was. It's your responsibility to go out and find somebody who is. If you don't, you'll be numbered with the goats no matter what you preach.

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Ringo:Meaningless rituals. It is the Spirit that counts.Listen to Him for yourself... What does He really say?John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."30 So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'" 32 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world." 34 "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread." 35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."41 At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42 They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?" 43 "Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.47 I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world." 52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" 53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?" 61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62 What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. 64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. 68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

You know nothing of what it means to me or how the Spirit relates to me.You're just lashing out in the dark.

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Rob,I don't see that you are discussing the topic of why Christians are afraid to doubt.You are also posting large portions of scripture that also don't address the subject.Ringo has tried to get you on topic, but to no avail and is himself teetering on the off topic edge.Please stop the personal banter and either clearly address the topic or withdraw from this thread.If you continue the personal banter, I will suspend you for 48 hours.Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.

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Perhaps. I have not yet addressed this issue. For now I'll just say there's no evidence that God is unable to preserve His message. The point is not how you or I can tell. The point is that the martyr believed the cause was true. Yeah right. That's a pretty big price to pay just to pull a prank. Now you can pretend not to have any understanding of human behaviour whatsoever; but don't expect me to educate you further on that matter. You can figure it out if you try.Oh yes. Part 2 was so absurd, and already answered... well now for part 1. One has to study what they said and determine whether or not they could have plausibly been deceived. It can take a while. Since I don't think the disciples were deceived, perhaps you can provide an example? Read it again, please. The pronoun "they" obviously cannot refer to honest scientists. It applies to the hype mongers and those who pander to them (yes even if the panderers are mislabeled as "scientists"). Anyone intentionally dealing in deceit deserves to be called on it, do they not?Do you make any effort to understand what's written? So how do you define "false certainty"?
Who is us? The things I've verified you contend I cannot truly trust.
And I'm sure you would like to "free" every one who possesses a shield of faith therefrom. Fat chance!But you said "Not at all." My definition was So let's have an example of doubt which does not oppose faith, trust, confidence, and certainty. Just one will suffice to demonstrate an imperfection; I won't hold you to a strict "not at all". Any apologist arguments which rely upon circular reasoning are highly subject to doubt. They should either apply another approach or be discarded. You make a pretty blanket statement. Are you saying all apologetics are circular?

Nonsense, there's plenty of evidence. For instance - the 20 or 30 mutually contradictory English translations of the Bible. If God has the magic power to preserve the accuracy of his message, they should all say the same thing.Of course, they don't. As it turns out, you can write whatever you want and no supernatural force will stop you from stamping "Holy Bible" right on the cover. God, clearly, has no ability to prevent the degradation of the fidelity of his original text (of course, I use that term jokingly; God would have to exist to be the author of the Bible.)That doesn't even get into issues with translations in other languages, or the fact that not all Christians even agree on what material actually constitutes the Bible. Catholics have more books in theirs, maybe you'd heard about that. Which martyrs? The earliest stories of martyrdom, like Jesus's ministry, are likely apocryphal. After that it's just people dying for what they believed was true. Happens all the time. Surely you wouldn't take a Muslim seriously who suggested that the religious fervor and zealotry of a suicide bomber was proof of the accuracy of the Qu'ran? Or weren't you aware that other religions besides Christianity have martyrs, too? We don't have any evidence they existed in the first place. Being certain and being wrong, at the same time. For instance, if you were absolutely certain that Walt Disney was cryogenically frozen at the time of his death, you would have "false certainty", because that didn't happen.