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Author | Topic: The evolution of religion? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Good ol' Skinner, the behavioral psychologist that placed his own kids in glass boxes, of Walden II utopia notoriety, and who trained pigeons to guide missiles to their targets (from inside) for the US army (the first "smart bombs"?). I would say the pigeons were trained to repeat motions they had been doing (randomly) between the hopper feedings.
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Some similar previous threads:
http://< !--UB EvC Forum: Evolutionary Origin of Religious Belief -->http://EvC Forum: Evolutionary Origin of Religious Belief -->EvC Forum: Evolutionary Origin of Religious Belief< !--UE-->http://< !--UB EvC Forum: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion? -->http://EvC Forum: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion? -->EvC Forum: What is the evolutionary advantage to religion?< !--UE--> Much of human life in all corners of the Earth, over vast periods of time, has believed in the supernatural. And no two original beliefs are the same. On the other hand the ascetic "religious experience" is fairly universal. Thus if god(s) are true, then they are unknowable (deism), OR there are no god(s).
Is religion then judged to be part of mans evolution? If mankind evolved in ways that guaranteed his survival, hunting, gathering, reproducing, what role did the belief in the supernatural and subsequently religion play in this evolution? We may be asking this question the wrong way. Religious belief could also be a side product of some other evolved behavior. In Message 105 I posted some thoughts in a different direction:
I have also been toying with the concept that instinctual group behavior (with social group behavior being partly instinctual) is part of the cause of religious behavior: religions appeal to the instinctual level to form and mold group behavior under a group leader or leaders, and that externalizing this to leaders outside the normal group limits may have been crucial to early human survival. Thus the instinctual basis is the reason we have evolved religions. This should be a new thread, and I haven't really put it together yet (my energy level is low these days). Thus the drive to form a religion is based on instinctual behavior for group social species and (evolved or learned) codes of behavior, similar to many animal species we know. Thus you would have Leader Person (A) has religious experienceGroup (A) (with Person (A)) forms a religion around the experience Successful formulations increase group bond and inter-individual behavior to the benefit of the group. The religions evolve over time to add elements not in the original vision, by leaders, for group control. Group (A) divides or mingle with non-religion group and form new groups with common basis allowing inter-group behavior to the benefit of the groups involved. Thus you end up with evolved religion, but the question of god(s) unresolved.
Is it only now with the establishment of science that religion is seen as a tail no longer needed or used? Or am I way off course? I would say "with the establishment of rational thinking that religion ... etc". I think (personal opinion) that formal religions are no longer needed, and that they interfere with real spiritual growth or possibilities, because they are hindered by the dogma based on those added crowd control elements. {ABE} There is also some medical evidence that a spiritual attitude, independent of any specific religion, is beneficial to the overall health of the individual, and this would select for individuals that had spiritual\religious experiences. {/abe} Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : added compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You've got to admire anyone who finds a use for pigeons at all. Not to squabble, but I think there is at least one good use ... Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... what having a spiritual attitude involves ... Meditation, study of a wide variety of spiritual texts (expose self to different views), setting time aside for personal introspection.
... how does one then promote spiritual growth? It is a personal journey, and no-one can tell you what your path is. Getting rid of dogma (walls) lets those paths go where they will. Enjoy.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Another thing to consider in formalized religion is cult indoctrination techniques. Remember once the initial formulation of the religion has passed the dogma\tradition\ceremonial aspects of the religion are about crowd control by those who want to remain leaders.
Cult Recruitment | HowStuffWorks
quote: http://www.ex-cult.org/fwbo/fwbosection2.htm
quote: Note that these same techniques are used during soldier indoctrination (called boot camp), even in the US forces (explains a lot about the attitudes of soldiers to command leadership). The GOP party? DNC? This also plays to the same instinctual/evolved social group behavior patterns, so many people are easy subjects for such indoctrinations. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Go ahead and make whatever personal attacks it takes to dismiss the skeptics out of hand. Looked in the mirror of late? .
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't know where people get this idea that I'm making all these personal attacks. I was thinking more of the dismissal of evidence out of hand. I have trouble with this. Even though the experiences cannot be replicated on demand does not mean that they do not occur, nor does it mean that there is no connection, no matter how poorly understood the experience is (even by the observer). There are valid conclusions that are not provable nor falsifiable, and those conclusions cannot be dismissed out of hand as not being correct: Delusion works both ways:
We could rid the world of all religions and faiths and these experiences would still occur. The question is what they mean. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
You might be interested in the link drawn in this article
Political and Social Science between schizophrenia and religion quote: The ancients also had lots of stories of seers ... usually holed up and being kept. There is also this articlePage not found - quote: Which leads to the interesting question of whether there is a "religion gene" .... and what to do about it (versus, say, a "homosexual gene" ... ) Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The suggestion that the seers, prophets and visionaries of all religions, the invententors and perpetuators of religions, may well have been epeleptics and schizophrenics is frequently made, and I suspect that the idea may be as old as religion itself. There is also the issue of the "God-Helmet"Holy visions quote: What "sort" is not discussed.
In fact, the "you're crazy" brigade actually win out in the overwhelming majority of cases, but if the madman is charismatic and not too obviously crazy, and perhaps in the right time and place where there's public dissatisfaction and desire for something new, then a major or minor prophet can be born. And the rules of statistics would say that given sufficient opportunity that this would occur. Of course it is more likely to occur in ignorant\gullible populations versus educated\skeptical ones. Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Do we know for sure that Neanderthals didn't burn some of their dead ... Would this not be evidence of some form of treatment of the dead? Ritual is ritual, and there is evidence of cremation also being used by those that built stonehenge as part of their rituals. The only thing that would not be ritualistic would be leaving the body where it died, untouched. It doesn't have to deal with belief in gods, it can be spirits, especially of the dead or of ancestors (as occurs in many societies). Enjoy. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1435 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
We do that even if we don't have a specific belief in the "spirits" that we give lip service to. I remember seeing a video of a chimp mom where the baby died, and she carried the dead body around for days afterwards. Obviously in mourning and denial. Being able to have a ceremony to bring peace may have positive benefits for the whole group. compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click) we are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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