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Author Topic:   How many sons does God have?
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 151 (407925)
06-29-2007 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by ICANT
06-29-2007 12:41 AM


Re: Unrelated irrelevant nonsense.
That you exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ICANT, posted 06-29-2007 12:41 AM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 68 of 151 (407926)
06-29-2007 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by ICANT
06-29-2007 1:00 AM


Re: Unrelated irrelevant nonsense.
If you look at the "I believes", the Nicene Creed, it begins:
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
Do you subscribe to the Nicene Creed?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by ICANT, posted 06-29-2007 1:00 AM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 151 (407930)
06-29-2007 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by kbertsche
06-29-2007 1:49 AM


Re: Unrelated irrelevant nonsense.
Notice I said this is irrelevant. We are not talking about getting into some kingdom but rather about whether or not we are "Sons of God".
The vast weight of evidence is IMHO that we are all "Sons of God".
God creates all that is, seen and unseen.
God is the Father.
We are instructed to pray, "Our Father, who art in heaven..."
The issue of salvation, entering some kingdom, of whether or not we get some award is irrelevant to whether or not we are the Sons of God.
As to being born again being a continuous task instead of some imaginary one time enlightenment, Jesus himself tells us time after time that it is what we do, our actions.
But the whole issue of "Born Again" is irrelevant to the question of whether or not you are a "Son of God".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by kbertsche, posted 06-29-2007 1:49 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 151 (408080)
06-30-2007 11:20 AM


We are all Sons of God according to the Bible.
Let's begin the journey at Matthew 6:9
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
and
1 Thessalonians 3:11 (King James Version)
11Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
and
Galatians 1:4 (King James Version)
4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
and
1 Timothy 1:2 (King James Version)
2Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
and
Isaiah 64:8 (King James Version)
8But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
and
1 Thessalonians 1:1 (King James Version)
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
I can continue posting examples from both the Old and New Testaments, but I think folk can get the idea. God is seen as the Father, with no mention of any Born Again nonsense.
"Born Again" is actually only mentioned in two places in the Bible, in John 3 and in 1 Peter 1. In 1 Peter 1 it is in relation to behavior, and in John 3 it is in a parable about salvation. In neither case is it anyway related to whether or not someone is a "Son of God".
For reference, here are the passages where Born Again is mentioned, in context.
John 3:
1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
and 1 Peter 1
17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Notice that in the instance of 1 Peter 1, it too acknowledges that we are all Sons of God by beginning with "And if ye call on the Father".
Edited by jar, : missing n

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by kbertsche, posted 06-30-2007 11:47 AM jar has replied
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 07-04-2007 11:41 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 151 (408085)
06-30-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by kbertsche
06-30-2007 11:47 AM


Re: We are all Sons of God accordig to the Bible.
Second, the verses you quote were written to specific people at a specific time.
Actually, I covered the whole spectrum I believe. There are instances from the OT, internal documents, from Matthew which was directed to any who pray, and from the Epistles which were Evangelical, marketing texts.
These are all "saved" ("born again" in the figure of John 3). The fact that these are God's children doesn't mean that everyone is, also.
As I have said several times, including the very post you are responding to, salvation is irrelevant to whether or not one is a "Son of God" and the "Born Again" nonsense is also totally irrelevant to the question.
If you would like to see additional support for the assertion that God is the Father and Creator of all, I would be happy to add additional links to passges that support that position as in Deuteronomy 32:6.
6Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?
The question asked in the thread is "How many sons does God have?".
Based on the overwhelming evidence from the Bible, I believe the Biblical answer is "We are all Sons of God."

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by kbertsche, posted 06-30-2007 11:47 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 06-30-2007 6:55 PM jar has replied
 Message 92 by kbertsche, posted 06-30-2007 11:55 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 151 (408124)
06-30-2007 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by ICANT
06-30-2007 6:55 PM


Re: We are all Sons of God accordig to the Bible.
Actually, you really should try reading the Bible.
The passage you are using is part of a dialogue a continuing conversation. In it, those gathered claim they are "Sons of Abraham."
The whole passage is in the context of a trial.
The whole of John 8 for those following along.
The passage definitely is limited in scope and points ONLY to those who are actively trying to kill Jesus.
It is totally irrelevant when applied to anyone else.
The bulk of the evidence from the Bible is that all men are Sons of God.
If you want I can continue to post example after example from the Bible itself.
Forgive me jar but I will take what Jesus said over what you say any day because what Jesus said is what I will be judged by.
LOL
Judgment is irrelevant to the topic. How many times does that need to be repeated. In addition, I can and have trotted out examples (as have others) where Jesus says that all men are brothers and so Sons of God.
You can dispute those passages, for example those in Matthew 25, but they still exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by ICANT, posted 06-30-2007 6:55 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2007 11:38 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 151 (408163)
07-01-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by kbertsche
06-30-2007 11:55 PM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
Well, I am not sure what more can be said. I have provided passages from the Old Testament and New Testament, from Gospels and Epistles, from the Creeds, where GOD is referred to as Father. I have shown examples from the Bible and from the Creeds where GOD is referred to as the creator of all and where that is directly linked to being Father. I have shown where Jesus asserts that all men of all nations, believers and non-believers are brethren, which again supports the Father Son relationship.
The best I can see is to let the readers of the thread make up their own minds.
As I said:
jar writes:
As I have said several times, including the very post you are responding to, salvation is irrelevant to whether or not one is a "Son of God" and the "Born Again" nonsense is also totally irrelevant to the question.
to which you replied:
quote:
Yes, you have said this several times, and Ringo has made similar comments. But repeating it hundreds of times will not make it true.
Well, until you can show some reason why the issue of salvation is relevant or the issue of "Born Again" is relevant to the very simply question of "How many sons does God have?", it is true.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by kbertsche, posted 06-30-2007 11:55 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by kbertsche, posted 07-01-2007 2:43 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 151 (408264)
07-01-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by kbertsche
07-01-2007 2:43 AM


Re: Strange hermeneutic
The fact that someone can use restrictive language does not change the relationship. Even disinheriting does not change the fact of Sonship.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by kbertsche, posted 07-01-2007 2:43 AM kbertsche has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 151 (408654)
07-04-2007 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
07-03-2007 11:38 PM


Re: All Are Not The Sons Of God and other Buz nonsense
You have no such specific evidence to show that all humans are sons of God.
Of course I do Buz, look at Message 73 where I not only metioned the verses but included the content. I also offered to continue posting content if needed.
Have you ever even read the Bible Buz, cause it certainly doesn't look like it.
One of the beautiful thing about the Bible is that it is so filled with contradictions that you can quote mine it to prove any point you want.
You choose to ignore the evidence. You can't just sweep all this evidence under the proverbial rug.
Uh, Buz, unlike you and the other Biblical Christians, I do NOT ignore the evidence or sweep it under the proverbial rug, I actually include the sections and links to the whole passage so everyone can read it.
The audience can follow along and read the record and decide for themselves who it is that is being evasive.
And it ain't me.
You seem to like 1 John 3, which begins
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
and John 1 that begins
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2The same was in the beginning with God.
3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
and 2 John that says
3Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Shall I continue?
I know it is comforting for you to think that you are something special, but unfortunately, that could only be true if the God you create is some picayune little evil God.
GOD creates all that is, seen and unseen. That includes you and me and every other living thing. We are all His children, Christian and Atheist, Muslim and Jew, Hindu and Buddhist, Agnostic and Taoist, Satanist and Wiccan.
If you look at the passages you listed, you will find that they all deal with behavior. We all all born saved by God's Grace. It is a done deal.
We all are God's Sons.
Buz, you seem to think that the issue is somehow important. If you want to think that there is some exclusivity to the term Sons of God, then fine. Enjoy it.
On the other hand, I happen to thing the issue raised in the OP is just silly because it is talking about a fantasy, a myth made up to explain large bones that were found.
The rest of the issues, those raised about how parts of the Bible say one thing that is contradicted by other verses, often in the same book and chapter, is IMHO unimportant and irrelevant.
If you want to think some folk are not "Son's of God", fine. I have no problem with that. I just think it is simply silly and pretty much a waste of time, of no importance or relevance.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 07-03-2007 11:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 2:45 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 151 (408727)
07-04-2007 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by ICANT
07-04-2007 2:45 AM


Heading far afield as usual.
You are saying this "us" includes everyone I assume.
If so who is the world that knew Him not and will not know the sons of God?
People such as you that don't recognize that the Muslim is as much a Son of God as you are, that the Atheist is as much a Son of God as you are.
You don't believe Jesus created Adam and Eve but that He created you a son of God.
Adam and Eve never even existed, they are but characters in a myth.
But on the other hand jar why bother to quote a book to prove your claim that everyone is a son of God when you don't believe there is a true fact in the Bible.
But that is not my position.
The Bible is a guide, a Map. It is not the Territory. Like all maps there will be areas that depict the territory very closely, and there will be other areas that are out of date or just plain wrong.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 2:45 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 1:50 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 127 of 151 (408746)
07-04-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by ICANT
07-04-2007 1:50 PM


Re: Heading far afield as usual.
By your statements I am a son of God, born saved by Gods grace, it is a done deal. Nothing to worry about.
Read what I said.
Born saved. We will all be judged based on what we do, but no one starts off damned.
And I wouldn't much worry about it anyway.
So if it points in the direction you believe in, it is the truth but if it does not then it is a myth or outdated?
Only for Biblical Christians and the Christian Communion of Bobble-heads.
You test the Map against the Territory, against reality, reason and logic.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 1:50 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 2:28 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 151 (408752)
07-04-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by ICANT
07-04-2007 2:28 PM


Re: Heading far afield as usual.
So we are born saved, a son of God.
But then that loving Father of whom everyone is a son is going to possibly disinherit us if we misbehave?
Why would a loving Father punish His sons along with satan?
Well, like I said, I wouldn't much worry about it. And I doubt even Satan will get much punishment, after all Satan only did what GOD wanted him to do.
But we will be judged, based on what we do. Even a Father punishes a Son who misbehaves.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 2:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 2:51 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 151 (408754)
07-04-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by ICANT
07-04-2007 2:51 PM


Re: Heading far afield as usual.
With eternal banishment?
Who knows?
But that is also totally irrelevant to the topic of the thread as well as so amazingly trivial it is not worth worrying about.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by ICANT, posted 07-04-2007 2:51 PM ICANT has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 135 of 151 (408800)
07-04-2007 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Buzsaw
07-04-2007 11:41 PM


Re: We are not all Sons of God according to the Bible.
The problem is not Biblical contradiction as you are claiming. It's that you have not mastered the skill of applying scripture to scripture in determining sound doctrine.
Ah, the old "there is no contradiction if I can make up some conceivable way to explain them away Theology".
You guys seem to do that a lot.
Again, I provided links to the full works in context that folk can read and make up their own mind.
If it makes you happy to create and worship your little god, then fine Buz. Enjoy.
It is pretty hard to deny the position of Son to those created by GOD though.
Frankly, I don't see it as worth wasting any more time on.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Buzsaw, posted 07-04-2007 11:41 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by kbertsche, posted 07-05-2007 1:16 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 425 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 137 of 151 (408845)
07-05-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by kbertsche
07-05-2007 1:16 AM


Re: We are not all Sons of God according to the Bible.
(But frankly, I don't understand why the first group is even bothering to participate in a forum which asks "What does the Bible really mean?", because they don't really seem to care about this question.)
We participate because we care very much what the Bible really means and what the message of Christianity really is, and want to present the best case for the position that the Message of Christianity is not one of bigotry and exclusion, of fear and coercion.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by kbertsche, posted 07-05-2007 1:16 AM kbertsche has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by Buzsaw, posted 07-05-2007 10:24 PM jar has not replied

  
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