Proof for God's Non-existance?

You asked atheists to post their proof of God's non-existence and then their evidence would be evaluated.Crash has provided his evidence twice, but no one has evaluated that evidence yet. Message 34 and Message 55. kongstad also posted in Message 16. So there are two issues to evaluate.Several posts have also asked for definition or qualities of the God for which you wish their proof and what you consider existence to be. Although I may have missed it, I have yet to see this information provided for the atheists.At some point theists are going to have to provide specifics.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Please respond to Message 56.The problem with all your analogies is that whether looking for beer in the fridge or when a show plays, there are specific parameters we can look for.If I have never seen a beer can/bottle, the word beer, or the brand; I have no idea what I'm looking for in the fridge when someone asks: "Is there beer in the fridge?"Just like the first time my husband tells me to fetch a keyhole saw from the shop. Since I don't know what a keyhole saw looks like, he has to describe it and the general area where he keeps it in the shop.Now if that saw isn't where he said it was or neither of us can find it, it doesn't mean that no keyhole saws exist, which I think is what you're getting at; but we do know we can go to the hardware store and he can buy another keyhole saw.What are we looking for when looking for God?. Don't use an analogy.The one with the specifics has to provide the information for those doing the looking. Not analogies.In Message 77 you said: No. The atheist is in the same position I was in with the keyhole saw. If theists can't tell them what to look for, they can only guess at the specifics.You have been given two conclusions already that I showed in Message 56.I assume the beer babble is in relation to Crash's post that since God is supposed to be everywhere and he finds a place he isn't, then God doesn't exist. Since you feel that that evidence is not evidence that God doesn't exist at all, then it means that God doesn't exist everywhere at once and the atheists are working with an incorrect specification. Is that correct, that God doesn't exist everywhere at once? If that is incorrect then theists need to explain why God is not in Crash's fridge or living room.If they say that God is in Crash's living room, then again, theists need to provide specifics that allow Crash to find God in his living room.Quite frankly, the fact that theists need to talk in analogies concerning this issue tells me their god doesn't exist.Theists still need to address kongstad's creation evidence.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Gods are fictional characters.The characteristics of a fictional character.1. Created by an author.
2. Created at a specific point in time.
3. Their existence is dependent on the author, literary work, memory of the work, and people who can read or hear the work.
4. They are not found in the spatio-temporal world.As fictional characters, gods are created, dependent members of our world and exist within the works that house them; but do not exist within our world. Their attributes are dependent on people.Since gods are fictional characters they do not exist independently in our world.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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That is the entire argument of this thread, and you go and present your opinion as though it is fact. We are, in a sense, arguing whether God is a fictional character or not.

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No you aren't. You may think you are since several have mentioned fictional characters, but you really haven't addressed it.In Message 27, Hoot Man asked: But you didn't address his question.Gods fit all the criteria for fictional characters that I listed in Message 105.So far you have been addressing Crash's premise: Message 34 and Message 55No one really confirmed that any god is considered to be present everywhere at once. Since you feel that Crash's evidence is not evidence that God doesn't exist at all, then it means that God doesn't exist everywhere at once and the atheists are working with an incorrect parameter.Is that correct, that God doesn't exist everywhere at once?What are atheists to look for when looking for God in the spatio-temporal world?Without specific parameters we really can't discuss whether gods can be found in the spatio-temporal world.The one with the specifics has to provide the information for those doing the looking.Where do we find these specifics? In literature and stories. God's attributes are dependent on people. The Bible itself shows us this. The difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT.A survey on religion showed that people in the United States have four distinct images of God.
Authoritarian, Benevolent, Critical or Distant. The characteristics depend on who you talk to or what you read.I'm saying that gods do not function independent of literature, stories, or people. This is repeated in Luke 11:9-13. Everyone who asks receives! This statement would be considered untrue if only one person didn't receive what they asked for. I know two Christians who prayed to be physically healed and weren't. Just like occulus repairus won't fix my glasses.In Genesis 11:1-9 the gods were concerned about mankind working together to accomplish the task of building a tower to heaven. So they thwarted the effort. Over the centuries we have accomplished many great feats by working together, but the gods haven't stopped us from going to the moon or putting satellites in space.Religions that state that God can only be known through revelation are proof that their God does not function independent of people.I don't do logic babble, so please refrain from using it.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

1. Created by an author.
2. Created at a specific point in time.
3. Their existence is dependent on the author, literary work, memory of the work, and people who can read or hear the work.
4. They are not found in the spatio-temporal world.

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(1) I wonder also, do we have fictional books claimed to be inspired by forces beyond our own?

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Irrelevant. An author is an author no matter how they are inspired.

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(2)... Does God have a point of creation? ...

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When the first story was created and passed on.

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(3) I don't really see the application of this point is.

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The character no longer exists once the medium is gone.

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(4) True, then again, it would seem as though the origin of myth and fictional story books stem from the roots of God and the supernatural. In a case where ghosts, spirits, living souls, and the such are concerned, they all seem to originate from a common source.

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Imagination

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

We're talking about the characteristics of a fictional character. The Bible contains various styles of writing.Whether a prophecy came true or not would serve to prove the veracity of the author, not the existence of the characters in the spatio-temporal world.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Really, so if God was the author of the ten commandments, where does this get placed on your wishlist?

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It is not a wish list. They are the characteristics of fictional characters.I'm not playing the "if" game. Show evidence that a god is an author.

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True, should we even bother to mention that it was claimed(created) at the beginning of human existence?

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I assume you 're talking about the Christian creation stories. I don't recall the authors claiming that the stories were told at the beginning of human existence. You'll have to provide support before I can answer.

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I think it's safe to say that God is immune this characteristic.

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Actually you can't say. The medium still exists. Several gods have fallen by the wayside, but they still exist in old writings. Once those are gone and people forget, they won't exist. I'm sure that has happened to many of the Native American gods/spirits from the New England area. Stories were lost.

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Do we have any books other than the scriptures that predate this? The scriptures seem to parent all other fictional books where supernatural and paralleling universes are concerned. Or do we have something older?

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Predate what?

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Okay, so, in keeping with the topic of this thread, your 'positive-evidence for no-God' is that God is a "fictional character"?

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You'll have to explain in plain terms what a no-god is before I can actually answer that question. No analogies please.
Like I said, I'm not much on logic babble.

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Okay, that's fine, but my question to you now is this: when referencing works of literature, what are your criteria for determining whether a character is fictional, historical, a combination, or whatever matter of 'real' you may determine it to be?

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Message 105Message 110 ... Without specific parameters we really can't discuss whether gods can be found in the spatio-temporal world.The one with the specifics has to provide the information for those doing the looking.Where do we find these specifics? In literature and stories. God's attributes are dependent on people. ...Please read all of Message 110 so I don't have to repeat those points.

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For example; if the scriptures are positioned at the root origin of fairytales then it is redundant to apply fairytale measures to scrutinize the scriptures.

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As I said before, the Christian Bible is composed of many styles of writings. Fairy tale is a style of writing and not the only type of work to contain fictional characters. So please be specific in what you are talking about and not lump all scripture together or all fictional characters into fairy tales. If you have better criteria for fictional characters, please present it.

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As for God(the author) the scriptures state that it was God Himself who told Moses to write down what He was about to tell him. Now I might be wrong in this, but doesn't this qualify God as the Author of that document?

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The authors of the Moses stories are the authors.The Ten Commandments in Exodus 20 are considered part of a priestly writing written after 722 BCE. (Documentary Hypothesis)The part about the second tablets in Exodus 34 were supposedly written by the J writer while the kingdoms were divided. After 922 BCE.If you want to discuss the Documentary Hypothesis itself, there may still be a thread open or you can start one, but don't continue it here unless you can tie it in with the topic.

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Do we have any fairytales which predate the ancient scriptures?

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I believe the earliest writing of the Epic of Gilgamesh is considered to have been written about 2150 BCE-2000 BCE.The main issue concerning this topic is that fictional characters are dependent. Message 110.Does any god function independent of literature, stories, or people?

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Thats interesting, because the scriptures which predate your claims state that the ten commandments were penned by Moses and dictated by God. Now I don't want to seem rude, but in a case such as this, wouldn't the older claim take precedence over the younger one? especially if the material is archived?

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The story does say that God dictated them to Moses. That's part of the story. Even before Jesus was born there were differences of opinion among the Jews as to whether Moses actually wrote the first five books. It is tradition that Moses wrote the first five books. See this thread: could moses have written the first five books of the bible.

1. Created by an author.
2. Created at a specific point in time.
3. Their existence is dependent on the author, literary work, memory of the work, and people who can read or hear the work.
4. They are not found in the spatio-temporal world.

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Well, that really was what was at the heart of my question: how do you determine if the character is a mental creation, or a living being?

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A living person's existence is not dependent on an author, literary work, etc.
A living person can be found in the spatio-temporal world.

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When you read Plato's dialogues, what tells you that this 'Socrates' character is real, yet causes you to determine this 'God' character of the Bible to be made up?

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Never read them. You would check them against the criteria listed above.Does the God character exist regardless of the literary work? Can it function independent of the literary work or people?

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Now, you mention one thing: "They are not found in the spatio-temporal world." How does that apply to people about whom we have no knowledge other than things others wrote about them, e.g., Socrates?

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Strictly historical writings should not have fictional characters in them. There are stories that are part fiction and part fact, but they aren't considered strictly historical. The Bible has portions that are part fact and part fiction.

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So, let's start with 'no-house', which exists as a concept, and concept only. As a result, 'no-house' and 'no-house the concept' are essentially the same: 'no-house'. Because 'no-house' does not exist as a tangible thing in the real world (remember, it's a concept), it cannot be proven true or false in terms of the real world.

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Which is what a fictional character is. My answer would be yes then if I understood you correctly.

Please reread Message 1 so you understand what this thread is about. If you are trying to argue against the gods-as-fictional-characters premise, then please make your argument clear.When referring to scripture, please provide the scripture so that we are all on the same page and explain how you feel that counters my position.

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In a time where tribes were indicative of peoples beliefs in contrast to religions today,

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What you've been saying makes my point more than countering it.The God character has changed over time as mankind has changed. If we look at gods from other cultures we can also see that some changed over time.In my position, the people change the character. The character doesn't change itself.The OP made no specifics on which God, but you are obviously speaking of the Christian God. So make your case, but keep to the topic. Don't lead the thread into various Bible adventures. There are other threads for that.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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As for your change, I have not seen any change over time where God's character is concerned. In fact, if anything, the scriptures have been quite consistent in demonstrating that God upheld His commands from the very beginning.

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So I guess that stands in favor of my argument.

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The God of the Bible goes from being a tribal god, but today you present God as a universal god.The Jews gleaned 613 commands from the Torah. Some of those had death penalties, but that has changed.Christians have two commands from the NT or claim not to be under "the law". Christians no longer follow the dietary laws or rituals. Who made those changes?Please provide support for your response, not just general comments.The significance is in who is making the changes.The Sabbath day was changed by the Catholic Church. The fictional character is adjusted as needed. Mankind makes the changes.

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The Bible acknowledges the intimate association between God(YHWH) and the Israelite nation.

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The Bible is a compilation of various works by various authors. So it can't acknowledge anything.You're showing me that new authors change what the old authors said.

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Furthermore, a tribal god’s destiny is bound up with that of its people. When the tribe is vanquished, the god too suffers defeat. This has not been the case with YHWH.

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The YHWH character has suffered the defeats of Israel. The books that make up the OT are a testament to that.Remember a fictional character's existence is dependent on the author, literary work, people who read the work and remember the work, etc.As long as one person remembers and desires to bring the character back to popularity, the character will exist. How many times were the Israelites chastised for assimilating into the reigning power?During the fall of the kingdoms and the exile the prophets are desperately trying to keep the YHWH character in the eyes of the people.When they returned from exile King Artaxerxes gave Ezra authority to continue their religion and he did. (Ezra 7)Supposedly God had commanded through Moses, that the Israelites were to live in booths during the feast of the seventh month (Leviticus 23), but you will find in Nehemiah 8:17 that they hadn't done that before.Leviticus is considered a priestly writing written after the fall of the northern kingdom (722 BCE).It is theorized that Ezra put the five books together and was the final redactor.Even the sacrificial rules were different between the five books and the other writings in the OT.

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There were distinct phases within the Christian scriptures to depict God's plans for mankind. The transitions between these phases do not mean that God was swaying in His rule. We can confirm this since He carried His plans down to the letter.

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You're summarizing what you feel or have been told the Bible says, but you're not showing me what reality shows us. You're not showing me that the God character is independent of the literature or the people.

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Are you referring to the Mosaic law? I think the scriptures are quite adamant in explaining that both sets of laws were designated for specific times and purposes. The first(Mosaic) was intended to carry God's people until the coming of Jesus. Once this event took place, people would fall under a new covenant. The entire process was carried out just as God commanded.

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Again you are showing me that a later author or authors have changed what the first author wrote.The Mosaic covenant itself doesn't support that conclusion.

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You still fail to answer my question. How do you determine if the character is real, or made up?

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You do research and look at the work. The Socrates in the Plato Dialogues is a fictional character based on a real person.

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This doesn't address my argument, nor is it even related. My argument was an attempt to prove why no-God is an unprovable concept; and your reply is to tell me what I'm talking about isn't real, but fictional?

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You said: How is that different than a fictional character?The purple trim on your no-house exists in your post. As soon as I read house, I picture a house. As soon as I read purple trim, I picture a house with purple trim. It exists as a concept just as God does.The no-house with the purple trim doesn't exist in the spatio-temporal world, but it does exist on this board as a written concept. You won't find it anywhere but here.Gods are concepts that can only be found in literature and the human mind. The fact that we all don't have the same concept of any particular god should prove that.A fictional character is a non-existent entity. So why isn't that proof.

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Having not addressed the rest of my post, I assume you agree with the statement that: 'all we can ever prove is 'yes-God', and can never have evidence of 'no-God'.'?

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Apparently I haven't understood what you're talking about yet.