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Author | Topic: Would you give up your place in heaven... | |||||||||||||||||||
Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I didn't miss the 'if'. I was merely stating that the question that was asked was unanswerable. If I was unclear, my point was that God would not give me (or anyone) the capability of sending people into heaven who have already rejected Him. God did not turn them away from heaven, they CHOSE to be separated from him. So you're compeltely incapable of so much as contemplating the hypothetical? The OP is pretty clear here - IF you COULD give up your place in Heaven for someone else, would you? It's like a discussion about how Superman flies. It's all hypothetical, and you're like the idiot who chimes in to remind everyone that people can't really fly.
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I-am-created Junior Member (Idle past 5911 days) Posts: 12 From: Pittsburgh Pennsylvania Joined: |
I'm sorry, I thought that this forum was a place to share your ideas on Faith and Belief. That's what I was attempting to do. I was merely sharing my thoughts and beliefs on this discussion.
Oh, you might also want to check the 'Rules' link at the top of the page.
quote: Perhaps this discussion could be better disputed if you were more concerned about what is being discussed rather than whether or not you think that I'm an idiot.
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Rahvin Member Posts: 4046 Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
I'm sorry, I thought that this forum was a place to share your ideas on Faith and Belief. That's what I was attempting to do. I was merely sharing my thoughts and beliefs on this discussion. ...which were compeltely off-topic, as would be bringing up the fact that people can't fly in a discussion about Superman. If you're not going to actually respond to the hypothetical in the OP, you're not on topic.
Oh, you might also want to check the 'Rules' link at the top of the page.
quote: Perhaps this discussion could be better disputed if you were more concerned about what is being discussed rather than whether or not you think that I'm an idiot. Perhaps you should read the rest of the rules concerning remaining on topic, leave the moderating to the Moderators, and understand the difference between saying that you are "like the idiot who reminds everyone people can't fly" and saying "you're an idiot." Now, before this little spat takes up any further posts away from the actual topic... I'm not a Christian, but assuming such a choice was presented to me, I'd very much like to say I'd give up my place for someone else...but I'm pretty sure I would not, and neither would almost anyone else. I can't even answer whether I would honestly risk my life for another person with any degree of certainty, let alone take eternal torture over eternal bliss. Again, I'd like to say I'd give up my spot, but come to face it, I doubt I'd have that much moral fortitude. And I'd doubt anyone else seriously would be able to answer in the affirmative, either.
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Vacate Member (Idle past 4631 days) Posts: 565 Joined: |
Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth If somehow I made it past Gods firewall and was presented with this choice I would choose Hell if it meant that 10 others would gain access to Heaven. I find this to be a simple choice really; if there really is such a thing as Hell then God really is as petty as most portray Him to be. I also have to think about how I would feel lounging in Heaving knowing that God damned the "most selfless, moral, charitable people" for eternal torture. Who is the ultimate evil in this story?
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willietdog Inactive Member |
Hell is simply an eternal place people go separated completely from God. An Atheist chooses to be separated from God. The separation from God is torture to the person after they realize what they have done.
So my answer, Hell No. Edited by willietdog, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Iano writes: But what about my love for God? Is my love for God greater than my love for family? Surely God would understand
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Phat Member Posts: 18350 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
cavediver writes: ..if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven? Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another. If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten? Thats quite a choice! I suppose that God would be testing me...but I don't see how my going to "Hell" would be a good example. Theoretically and hypothetically, the answer is an obvious altruistic choice. Yes, any good person would take a bullet for the rescue of ten. Practically, however, this question makes no sense. If these ten went to Heaven, would they suddenly have the opportunity to "meet" God? If so, could they still hypothetically reject Him and could they still stay and attend the party?
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ikabod Member (Idle past 4523 days) Posts: 365 From: UK Joined: |
i would not make any deal with such a unjust deity ..
anyone who is one of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth is clearly a good person in the real meaning of the word ... i would aline myself with them , if they would have me ... not the maker of silly rules ... if ten of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth considered and rejected the message .. then it is a failing of the message not the people ....
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
quote: Or Cavedivers estimation of what constitutes selflessness amd morality differs somewhat from Gods idea of same. If these people are in fact, lovers of evil and insist in their refusal to love the truth - then the message they shall not get. For the message itself is truth. The message says (amongst other things) that you have evil in your heart and no matter how selflessly you act that evil cannot be got rid of. That no matter how morally you try to act you know the immorality that resides within you. Sticking your head in the sand isn't the messages fault. And the message won't face the consequences of persisting in doing so to the bitter end
quote: Those silly rules happen to be the very things that will assist in saving you (in the event that you are finally saved). Or they will be the thing that will condemn you - in that case. Your conscience is your rule giver in anycase. Gods law delivered to your door. I'm sure it's not silly you consider it after breaking it's law. Guilt and shame are more likely companions. If not, you have reason to fear.
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ikabod Member (Idle past 4523 days) Posts: 365 From: UK Joined: |
Or Cavedivers estimation of what constitutes selflessness amd morality differs somewhat from Gods idea of same. If these people are in fact, lovers of evil and insist in their refusal to love the truth - then the message they shall not get. For the message itself is truth. and here is the issue .. either we have a agreed measure of what constitutes selflessness amd morality , i am avoiding the "absolute" word here .. or we can never know if what we are doing is "right" .. either we can be our own critic .. or its just a mean game with hidden rules ..... Now i very carefully stated the Ten had considered the message .. they looked and found the message wanting ..and yet they still followed the path of good deads .. clearly without any hope of reward ... where as if the HAD accepted the message then they would have foreseen a expectation of a reward .. thus lowering the degree of their selflessness .. so have they not done the greater more noble thing of doing what is right for no gain .. compared to a belive of the message . are you saying its better to accept the message and be only a little selfless .. than to be supremely selfless and reject the message ? ****Sorry i think we may be getting off topic if so please ignore ****** Edited by ikabod, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
quote: Suppose for a moment that conscience is actually Gods voice (or influence) in-our-head. These "moral and selfless people", when they are acting morally and selflessly, are actually empowered by the urge placed there by God. He itches, they scratch - and the credit for their goodness goes to God. When they are not acting morally and selflessly (for no one is perfect) they are only willfully suppressing and rejecting the voice of conscience that tells them that they ought to be doing otherwise. Sometimes their conscience might be screeching at them - yet they suppress it and ignore it in order to have their wicked will done. The credit for their evil goes to them. If Hell is an existance without the presence of God it is safe to suppose that the person in Hell will have no conscience anymore. God will have totally left: lock, stock and barrel. All that will be left is a person whose heart is evil without the restraint of conscience. There will be no redeeming features that impart even the merest iota of that which makes humanity attractive. They will be totally ugly - like one of those despicable creatures featuring in Lord of the Rings or Narnia. They would be impossible to even pity them, so ugly will they be. So much for pining away for loved ones who end up in Hell. If Hell is a place where Gods love isn't and if Hell is a place a person only ends up in due to their hearts desire - then your objection must struggle. God granting a persons hearts desire cannot be described as a petty act. Respectful of the humanity he gave them (and whose final act of respect is, ironically, to take that humanity away again) - but not at all petty. It's a very serious business this life. But then, we all know that.
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
quote: The issue is whether the righteous acts of a person are attributable them - making them the most selfless people in the world. Or whether the credit for their righteous acts goes to God. Believers in the Biblical God attribute their righteous acts to Gods influence and give glory to him. Unbelievers attribute their own righteous acts to themselves.
quote: The selfless person carrying out righteous acts does so because of Gods call upon them urging them to do so. Their conscience pricks them into action. The conscience is Gods voice and empowerment and the credit is thus Gods. The persons reward is a salved conscience at the very least. And the satisfaction that comes from loving others perhaps. The believer can do good acts motivated by the reward he will get (which the Bible tells him that he will not get, in that case) or out of a convicted heart similar to the heart of the selfless unbeliever.
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ikabod Member (Idle past 4523 days) Posts: 365 From: UK Joined: |
ok we must agree to differ ..
to me any act that needs the promting of someone else is no a truly selfless act .... such "goodness" comes without thought , reasoning , hints , directions , instructions and without the clause ...for this act to have value you must agree to the rule that you are nothing without me above you .... if you have to refer to a book to act in a "correct" way then you are defering to anothers values ...instead of coming to the right values yourself ...
Unbelievers attribute their own righteous acts to themselves. not the selfless ones .... they attribute their righteous acts to the Need that those act are done ..... and for no other reason .. At the risk of going way off topic ... what about all the people born before the message was given .. by your rules none of them could have avoided hell ...
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iano Member (Idle past 1971 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
quote: Which is why, perhaps, Jesus said that only God is good. I'm not sure from which source you suppose godless-good-acts to otherwise come from though: upbringing, influence of society, genetics? Are you not still co-reliant on something/someone else for the good act. As I am? -
quote: That I conclude there to be no improving on his values and that I chose to adhere to his values doesn't render me different than yourself. You arrive at and adhere to whatever values you arrive at and chose to adhere to - just like I do. At the end of the day, we lie in the bed we make for ourselves. -
quote: The need where? The need that arises in them that those acts be done, I suggest. Seeing as there is no one beyond themselves (they suppose) the need can be only sourced within themselves. And so the righteous acts that follow are attributable only to that need arising in themselves. Attributable to themselves thus, making the act a self-righteous one. -
quote: Not so. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation - not just words on a page or the call of a street evangelist. Abraham was saved by the gospel of God - and he lived long before Christ and the good news concerning him. You might be confusing me with people who say that you must hear and believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ (as commonly communicated) in order to be saved. Their rule isn't my rule. Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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rueh Member (Idle past 3691 days) Posts: 382 From: universal city tx Joined: |
quote:I believe your supposition is way off here. The other people around them would be where the need is sourced from. They may suppose that there is no higher power but not that there is no one else other than themselves that may need assistance. The act would then be not one of self righteousness but of selflessness. Since they are acting for the benefit of others for the others good alone.
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