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Author Topic:   Is Evolution Reversible
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 49 (509143)
05-19-2009 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by doc
05-17-2009 7:08 PM


It would often be qute hard for evolution to go back the way it came.
It is true that for any series of mutations that will get you from A to B, there's an exactly opposite set of mutations that will get you from B back to A. But then there's natural selection to be taken into account.
Consider birds for example. They evolved from things that couldn't fly into things that could fly, into things that could fly really well --- and then some of them evolved to be flightless. Now, you might call that last step "evolution going backwards" in a loose sense, but it cannot go back the way it came.
For flightless birds evolve when the benefits of being large outweigh the disadvantage of being too large to fly, and this natural selection permits. But for evolution to go back the way it came, flighted birds would have to evolve to a flightless form via an intermediate stage like Archaeopteryx. But this would require them to evolve from birds that fly to birds that still fly but not so well. And this natural selection will not permit.
---
An interesting example of a similar phenomenon can be seen today in the laboratory. If you infect a culture of single-celled Chlorella algae with single-celled flagellate predators, then the algae evolve into a colonial form which is too big to eat. The way in which they do this is interesting.
The first step is a mutation which makes the normal process of cell division incomplete. The result is that they go straight from single-celled organisms to colonial organisms consisting of hundreds of cells. While this is favored by natural selection, it has its drawbacks: most obviously, the cells on the inside are going to be deprived of nutrients.
So what happens next is that selection favors progressively smaller and smaller colonies until it reaches a stable form of eight cells, all of which are at least partly on the outside of the organism: this ameliorates the nutrient problem but is still too large to be eaten.
Now, what do you suppose happens when you take the predators away again? Does evolution go back the way it came? No: it can't. For to do that, the colonies would have to get bigger and bigger, which would exacerbate the nutrient problem but carries no benefits whatsoever, so natural selection will not permit evolution in this direction. And indeed experimenters observe that the eight-celled form remains stable in the absence of predators.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 23 of 49 (509852)
05-25-2009 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by doc
05-24-2009 11:57 AM


If you lost the sprinkler from the end of your hose then the chances of another sprinkler occurring due to evolution would be almost impossible unless there were only a reduced number of possible options available.
It would be completely impossible: hoses do not reproduce with variation.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 49 (509859)
05-25-2009 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Taz
05-24-2009 3:48 PM


I see this question as nonsensical. Evolution only has 1 direction, and that is forward. Even if we eventually turn to slime in order to survive, it would still be forward evolution. If we eventually turn to single celled bacteria, it would still be forward evolution. There's no such thing as backward evolution.
Well, it depends on how you interpret the question. I don't think he means: "could evolution go against natural selection?"

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 36 of 49 (511150)
06-06-2009 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Hyroglyphx
06-06-2009 9:50 AM


Re: Answer is in the question
Didn't you just answer your question? If evolution doesn't have a direction, then going backwards is a contradiction in terms, as "backwards" is indicative of being directional.
I think that you, too, are misunderstanding the question.
By "evolution has no direction", he means that there is no innate tendency in in evolution to produce increased size or complexity or what-have-you.
So if some lineage got larger, than smaller, the period over which it got smaller would be "evolution going backwards".

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 38 of 49 (511164)
06-07-2009 7:20 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by Percy
06-07-2009 5:56 AM


Re: Answer is in the question
A chromosome duplication could easily be reversed a generation later, but a chromosome loss would be almost impossible to reverse (except in cases where it was a duplicate of another chromosome).
A chromosome loss would be almost impossible to survive unless it was a duplicate of another chromosome.

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 Message 46 by Dr Jack, posted 06-10-2009 5:53 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 41 of 49 (511171)
06-07-2009 8:08 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Hyroglyphx
06-07-2009 7:57 AM


Re: Answer is in the question
But Dr. Adequate is right in that a significant nucleotide change would kill an organism before it gave it a chance to populate further. Somewhere in the order of three base changes, maybe?
Not likely: given the mutation rate, you yourself have many more single nucleotide substitutions than that, in the order of about 100.
See A.S. Kondrashov, Direct estimates of human per nucleotide mutation rates at 20 loci causing Mendelian diseases.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 313 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 49 of 49 (511666)
06-11-2009 3:54 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Dr Jack
06-10-2009 5:53 AM


Re: Chromosome loss
Hmm... not sure about that. Humans have 46 chromosomes, but we almost certainly evolved from animals with 48 (given that Gorillas, Chimps and Orangs all have 48).
That's not a loss, that's a fusion.
Chromosome 2. An article so profound in its intellectual brilliance that I can only say ... I wrote it.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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