God exists as per the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA)

Hi Rahvin,I thought you wasn't talking to me. It might help if you knew what the conversation was all about.But let me answer your question anyway.In Genesis 1:1 I am told "In the beginning created God the heaven and the earth"Since there could be no beginning to God's eternal now the universe and earth has always existed. In some form.You can check my posts for over 2 years you will not find where I have ever said the universe had a beginning.You will find where I quoted several modern day scientist as saying the universe had a beginning.You will find where I have argued that if the universe had a beginning that it had to begin in and from 'an absence of any thing', or had to have a cause.So I am not arguing that proposition #2 is true.I have argued in this thread 'IF' the universe began to exist it had a cause for it's existence.You have told me the universe "just is", well I believe that and you don't. You believe it just is for 13.7 billion years.I believe the infinite universe JUST IS.In Message 277 I said: I had not mentioned the universe and was not talking about the universe.I said 'some thing'.OP proposition #1 says: "1...Anything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence"That is what I was discussing.Can you show me 'some thing' ('any thing') that began to exist that did not have a reason for its existence?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Straggler, No and I didn't expect you to have evidence. It is not available at the present and probably never will be.Just like you asking for evidence of God's existence. It does not exist today in the form you require. So I can not satisfy your demand for such evidence. I know why there is something rather than nothing but nobody is interested in the answer. So why bother.Now if you are asking what is my purpose here at EvC. I stated in the beginning I was here to learn. Nobody believes that but I don't care. I don't think I have asked any questions here that some young person has not asked me in the past.If I don't know the answer what am I supposed to say I don't know.Well that is an answer they don't want to hear from pastor because he is supposed to know everything. Believe me I have tried it. I don't believe T=0 exists.In 4 or 5 years the preceived T=0 is going to move about 500 billion years. Then what?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi cavediver,I guess you not going to answer this post but that is ok I am going to answer yours anyway. Probably.But am I confused about the following 6 statements?

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1. Nothing is known about T=0

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2. T=0 = singularity which refers to the ultra-dense, ultra-hot state around T=0 (up to say T=10^-43 secs),

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3. But the singularity does not really exist as it is simply the artifact of inapplicable mathematics.

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4. T=10^-43 secs The complete universe existed and was about the size of a pea, was expanding, and was 1,160,400,000,000,000 degrees. (roughly) (1 quintillion degrees) temperature provided by Son Goku.

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5. Everything we see today and even that out there we can not see came from that ultra-dense, ultra-hot state.

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6. Hubble's constant says the universe is expanding in every direction at the same speed.

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Did I get any of them wrong?If all those are true according to the Standard Big Bang Theory I have some questions for you.The universe is expanding in every direction at the same speed in relation to what? Would that be T=0?Is the universe cone shaped as presented by some? Yes/NoIs the universe tube shaped as presented by some? Yes/NoIs the universe a sphere? Yes/NoHas T=0 moved? Yes/NoIf T=0 is stationary and all the space between all the quarks (and their strings if they exist) are expanding, wouldn't that mean the universe is a sphere filled with objects at all different distances which are continuing to expand? Yes/NoI don't expect an answer but I asked anyway.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Straggler, I don't remember saying anything about "before" time.I was trying to discuss the OP which says:"1...Anything that begins to exist has a cause for its existence2... The universe began to exist.3... Therefore the universe had a cause to exist."#1 does not say anything about time nor does it say anything about the universe.It says 'anything'..If I ordered all the material for a house to go on my property according to a blueprint I had drawn and had it delivered to my property:Would I have a house on my property?How long would I have to wait for the materials to assemble themselves into a house on my property?Would it be necessary for 'some one' or 'some thing' to assemble the materials according to the blueprint for my house to exist?If it would be required that carpenters, masons, plumbers, electricians and painters assemble and finish my house for me to be able to go into my house cook supper, take a bath and go to bed that would mean my house had a cause for its existence.Thus affirming my house began to exist having a cause for its existence.#2 states "The universe began to exist". some have denied this but I put forth that:Einstein believed the universe had a beginning because GR predicted the universe was expanding which Hubble proved.Steven Hawking said:

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In this lecture, I would like to discuss whether time itself has a beginning, and whether it will have an end. All the evidence seems to indicate, that the universe has not existed forever, but that it had a beginning, about 15 billion years ago. This is probably the most remarkable discovery of modern cosmology. Yet it is now taken for granted.

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The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago.

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SourceNow I will add a few more comments:Tom Parisi says:

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Once upon a time, there was no time or space. Scientists generally agree that "the Big Bang" birthed the universe about 15 billion years ago. Out of this eventat a temperature of nearly a trillion degrees cubedthe building blocks of nature formed. They gathered and spun out matter, energy, space and time, and eventually stars, planets, galaxies, and life itself. From its first instant, the universe has been in a constant state of expansion, cooling, and evolution. Since Albert Einstein's 1915 Theory of Relativity spawned the Big-Bang theory, scientists have pieced together the puzzle of the universe quite nicely.

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SourceCalTech

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As a result of the Big Bang (the tremendous explosion which marked the beginning of our Universe), the universe is expanding and most of the galaxies within it are moving away from each other.

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SourceStuart Robbins, Case Western Reserve University

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The Big Bang model of the universe's birth is the most widely accepted model that has ever been conceived for the scientific origin of everything. No other model can predict as much as the Big Bang model can.

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SourceDr. van der Pluijm, University of Michigan

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The Big Bang theory states that the Universe began when primordial mass exploded.

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No webpage found at provided URL: SourceChris LaRocco and Blair Rothstein
One of the most persistently asked questions has been: How was the universe created? Many once believed that the universe had no beginning or end and was truly infinite. Through the inception of the Big Bang theory, however,no longer could the universe be considered infinite. The universe was forced to take on the properties of a finite phenomenon, possessing a history and a beginning.About 15 billion years ago a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe. This explosion is known as the Big Bang. At the point of this event all of the matter and energy of space was contained at one point. What exisisted prior to this event is completely unknown and is a matter of pure speculation. This occurance was not a conventional explosion but rather an event filling all of space with all of the particles of the embryonic universe rushing away from each other. SourceUniversity of Illinois

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Most scientists agree that the universe began some 12 to 20 billion years ago in what has come to be known as the Big Bang (a term coined by the English astrophysicist Fred Hoyle in 1950.

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SourceLouis J. Clavelli, Ph.D., Professor of Physics, University of Alabama
What is the universe made of? This age-old question is still the subject of heated discussion in particle-physics circles. A large body of astrophysical observations now clearly points to a beginning for our universe about 14 billion years ago in a cataclysmic outpouring of elementary particles. There is, in fact, no evidence that any of the particles of matter with which we are now familiar existed before this great event. Most of the (apparently) stable particles that we now see around us -- photons, electrons, quarks, and several species of neutrinos making up all of the visible universe -- were created at this time. In addition to these, it is now known that several additional species of quarks and electron-like "leptons," as well as other particles ("gauge bosons") that serve as the force carriers of physics, existed in equilibrium for the first fraction of a microsecond after the beginning. These particles, which then decayed away, are briefly produced again in high-energy experiments. SourceJanna Levin, Department of Applied Mathematics and Theoretical Physics at Cambridge University

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The universe had a beginning. There was once nothing and now there is something.

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SourceAll these and there are many more who agree that the universe had a beginning.'IF' the universe began to exist it had a cause for its existence.'IF' the universe did not begin to exist then it did not have a cause for its existence.Did the universe begin to exist?ORIs the universe infinite?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Phage,The shouting is getting ridiculous. It reminds me of a 3 year old having a temper tantrum. What is your problem? Better question is why don't you address any point?Do you see the first word in the statement?"If"So did the universe have a beginning? Many scientist say it did. What say ye?Now if the universe began, did it begin from preexisting materials.If it began to exist from preexisting materials.Where did those preexisting materials come from?Why did the universe begin 13.7 billion years ago instead of 100 billion years ago.If it began to exist what caused it to begin to exist?Back to my house, How long would I have to wait for my house to begin to exist where I could cook dinner, take a bath and go to bed in my house from the materials that was delivered to my property.I am well aware that all the materials for my house existed on my property after they were delivered but I could not cook dinner, take a bath and go to bed in those materials.Would I ever be able to cook dinner, take a bath and go to bed in my house without the house having a cause to exist?Same thing goes for the universe.If at some point in the past all materials for the universe existed.Why does the universe exist today?You are suggesting it does not have to have a reason for its existence.Somebody said, the universe is its own cause.That is just as stupid as me saying those materials on my property caused my house to begin to exist where I could cook dinner, take a bath and go to bed in my house.So to answer your accusation, "You still do not have any reason to make this assumption."To think otherwise is illogical.
'No thing' can produce itself, even if all the materials exist.Your assertion, "You have never observed anything being created from nothing by a cause," Is very true.However I have seen many things being created from preexisting materials.Your final assertion, "so you have no reason to assume it happens that way."I have never assumed 'some thing' was created by a cause from 'no thing'I have and do maintain that the universe has always existed in some form. Just not as we see it today. How many times I got to repeat that?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Percy,In Message 294 you made this statement: In [msg299] I tried to explain a position to Straggler and get back to the OP.I restated the OP.I gave an example of why I would believe the statement in #1 to be true.I then presented what eight scientist had to say about #2.I don't see where any of that discussion could be considered not discussing the OP, or against the guidelines.At the end I did ask two question that could probably be considered off topic but I believe them to be pertinent to the discussion as they directly affect #2.Now I will admit in Message 301 I totally went way off topic when I asked Phage0700 what his problem was.But considering all the insults and derogatory remarks made to and about me in this thread I think it should be understandable. I saw no prior intervention.The rest of the message was an attempt to discuss the KCA cosmological argument which no one here seems to have any desire to do.Now kind sir would you be so kind as to point out the exact arguments that is off topic in the two posts since your request to stick to the topic.That way in the future maybe I can avoid making those mistakes if I can resist the tempting bait that everyone keeps putting in front of me.Thanks in advance.God Bless,I do realize by posting this message I have broken a guideline and disobeyed an Admin's request.
and will accept whatever punishment is prescribed.But I wanted this message posted here in this thread and not someplace else in the forum.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."