Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

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PD writes:

In the story God says that if they eat of the tree they will die. So death is the penalty for eating from the tree. If we were hearing the story for the first time, we might think the tree is poisonous, but once they eat of the tree we know that the tree isn't poisonous. So for Adam and Eve to die the day they eat, they would have to be killed. I think we have become so accustomed to the story that the drama is lost.

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Whaaaat?

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I dont believe what I am hearing here, you do understand how ridiculous this sounds, correct? When a judge pronounces judgement on someone is he killing them as in the sense of murder. You have got to be kidding. No wonder you dont understand what the Soul or death involves from a Biblical perspective.

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What you quoted was my response to a question from kbertsche in Message 27. We are talking about the text of the Adam and Eve story. What judges do is irrelevant to the story. What is your point concerning what I actually said?

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PD writes:

Yes, the people were physically exiled/separated from the land of Israel. They were being disciplined. They didn't view the body and soul as separate, so in what way were they separated from God? Other than location, what was different than when they were in the land of Israel?

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You are carefully avoiding the argument. This is a clear instance of a person being obstinate and obtuse in an argument. Lets see if you will answer this question. When a person is put in prison or executed is the state or country in effect telling that person that your rights are revoked and you are cut off from a relationship from the state and from the people.

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That was my response to Peg's Message 32. We are discussing Ezekiel 37:9. Your prison analogy doesn't fit the bill. What you are describing is a physical separation by prison cells or death. Prisoners can still have relationships. Where does the text show loss of relationship with God?

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You explanation of these terms do not compare with what scholars say about these words or thier beliefs in those days.

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Provide evidence please.

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I have shown it by the text itself, Ezekiels (Gods command), Adam and Eve, that separation involves RELATIONSHIP and the argument that further inspiration would clarify what GOOOOOOD's meaning of death, soul and punishment would be.

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Then you need to reference the posts you feel provided the evidence. I don't see it.

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Lets put it this way and see if you will answer it. It there any POSSIBILITY at all that any of this can have a SPIRITUAL application, seeing that God, God's existence and Gods rules are involved. In other words the TEXT itself, the same one that you draw your conclusions from directly state and imply the SPIRITUAL aspects of these concepts.

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What specific text are you referring to?

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I have repeatedly, but what good will it do unless you state your position on God or whether any of this is from God or not. You being overly obstinate and unreasonable in this discussion. Your taking a humanist and materialistic stance when dealing with clearly Spiritual and God matters. Thats simply ridiculous. I have given evidence, now provide an answer t these simple questions, please!!!!

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My position on God is irrelevant to the discussion. If I have missed your evidence, then please refer the posts where your evidence resides. You do realize that evidence means textual evidence, not just you saying something is so.Show me the relationship problems in the text of the Adam and Eve story.
Show me in the text of Ezekiel that die is something other than physical death.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

I made it very clear in Message 1, Message 6, and Message 10 that this discussion deals with the plain text of the Bible.

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Your intimation that God does not matter and that your position on God does not matter is both unreasonable and illogical,

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I didn't say that God doesn't matter. I said that whether I believe the text is written by God or not is irrelevant to the discussion.

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Your first mistake is assuming that words cannot have a dual meaning to God or man, regardless of thier strict definition, or what a group of people believes, as i have just indicated.

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Your second problem is that you are assuming that the hearer always has to understand the entire purpose of a statement immediatley for it to be valid or dual.

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I'm quite aware that a word can have several meanings depending on how they are used, but they don't usually have dual meanings within one usage in a sentence.Example: I have a lead horse. The word lead has more than one meaning, but it can only have one meaning within the sentence. I either have a lead (metallic element) horse or I have a lead (acting as a leader) horse. Now my lead (leader) horse could be a lead (metal) horse, but then I would have to use the word twice to get that point across.Show me within the plain text of a specific verse that there is a dual meaning to the word you question and that the audience doesn't need to understand what they are listening to.We aren't talking in generalities. We are looking at how words are used in a specific text.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The concept of separation/alienation from God while alive does appear in the OT. Perhaps the best explanation is here:

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Is. 59:2 writes:

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(NASB): But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
(NET): But your sinful acts have alienated you from your God; your sins have caused him to reject you and not listen to your prayers.

If we understand death=separation, then this passage is speaking of spiritual death. It correlates well with NT descriptions of spiritual death.

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OK so in the term spiritual death, death creatively means separation and not extinction. As an adjective of death does spiritual refer to the soul or to religious values?I agree that the verse actually speaks of alienating God's affections. It was a recurring theme for the Israelites. When all was well, God was happy and they were under God's protection. When things went bad, God was displeased and they weren't under his protection. I seriously doubt the every individual was corrupt or alienated God. People were supposedly still praying but God wasn't listening.There isn't anything that speaks of the soul as opposed to the whole person. God was still watching over the Israelites even though he was annoyed with them.As I showed in the OP, the uses for spiritual death have been used to create a dual meaning in conflicting verses concerning physical death. See this article No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.thesecondchanceministries.org/Three DeathsDeath just isn't what it used to be. I think spiritual death is another catch phrase that really doesn't mean anything, but can be molded to fit many situations.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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the difference was their current standing with God. They were in his bad books. He had removed his protection from them, he allowed them to be taken into captivity so he wasnt supporting them any longer. They were spiritually dead in that he had removed himself from their midst. They were on their own.

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God supposedly removed protection, but I don't see that he was any less in their midst than he was before. Once God forgives them or shows mercy then you would say that they are no longer spiritually dead, even though all the people may not have done anything different?

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the prophets wrote about spiritual matters, and the physical condition of the people was the physical representation of their spiritual condition. This is why the wrote in the way they did.

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they used the physical conditions to explain the spiritual condition. For instance jerimiah warned of comming destruction as punishment because of their unfaithfullness.

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So the body and soul go hand in hand.

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When they were spiritually healthy, the land was peacful, they had plenty of food and good things. But when they were spiritually dead, the land was desolate and the people would suffer.

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From what I can tell, you're just putting a new name on good and bad behavior or faithful and unfaithful. It doesn't really have anything to do with the soul.So spiritual death really is a misnomer. It isn't related to the common use of the word die, dead, or death. It isn't related to physical life or death. It is just another way of saying unfaithful.I can agree that the OT speaks of the Israelites as being unfaithful to their religion/God and disobedient which reflects the persons behavior.Are they only considered spiritually dead when God gets fed up with them?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Will you deny that bsaed on the two examples I have presented that God can, A. Have secondary meanings to the hearer., ie Abraham and Satan and that , B. The hearer does not need to understand all of the ramifications presently to get the overall message.

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Sorry, but I don't know what examples you are talking about. Please provide the examples again or provide a link to the post containing the examples. It is common courtesy when a post is far removed from the reference and it helps readers to follow along. Thanks!Job is not one of the OT prophets or the Torah.

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Let me ask one more question in this connection. I understand your OP and I understand your purpose, we will probably never agree on the content or usage. However, is there a reason fro making this distinction? Are you trying to imply that there is no afterlife for man, the soul which is essentially the mind just dies and we do not go on in any form? Is this your implication@ Or is there another I am not seeing besides the word usage? are you implying anything in your contentions?

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We aren't discussing the afterlife. In the OP I stated: In various discussions, the concept of spiritual death rises to help explain inconsistencies between Bible authors. Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20 were examples given along with the Adam and Eve story. My point is that the later concept of spiritual death is not a valid argument for those verses. The text doesn't support it. I then asked that people show me that any of the plain text readings of the prophets or the Torah writers speak of spiritual death or future ethereal punishment without invoking later concepts or adding to the text.So far what I've learned is that spiritual death has nothing to do with any meaning of the word death. Death is being used creatively. So it wouldn't apply to the examples I gave in Message 1. (See how I linked to that for the convenience of readers and responders?)I don't think I've seen anything yet to show that spiritual death dealt with later punishment in heaven. That one's a bit fuzzy still, I think.Spiritual death seems to be another way to say unfaithfulness, which has nothing to do with real death.Obviously it doesn't say spiritual death in the OT writings. There isn't even a word translated as spiritual in the OT writings. There is in the NT.I still think the ancient concept kept the body and soul together. As I said to kbertsche in Message 38: I did find some other articles dealing with Sheol as your quote described. But even in those articles the separation is only after death and the "shadow" remained there. There was no concept of individual resurrection or separation from God. Edited by purpledawn, : Typo

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Its not about him getting fed up with them. Its about them remaining faithful and worthy of recieving his spirit.

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If you are alive you have life, but if you loose your life, you become dead.
if you are spiritualy alive its because you have Gods holy spirit, but if you loose that spirit because he stops giving it to you, and you are spiritually dead.

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Now you're coming up with another meaning for spirit. The Holy Spirit is different than the human spirit.The plain text of Ezekiel 37:9-12 just means God is bringing the Israelites back to the land out of exile.So let's look at the word spirit.There are several words that can be translated as spirit in the OT. See link for list. Ruwach is one of those words and is used 4 time in Ezekiel 37:9, but it is translated as wind or breath.I'm going to avoid a lot of cut and past of long definition by providing the links.Link for current meanings of the English word spirit.
Etymology of the English word spirit. The majority of the Bible translations, do not translate the occurrences of ruwach in Ezekiel 37:9 as spirit.In Judaism, the human spirit is not something that can be removed from a live person without causing actual physical death. The spirit is the breath.The Holy Spirit is something different though. It is not connected to the physical life of the person.What you are describing is a loss of God's Holy Spirit, not anything to do with the individual's spirit. Ezekiel 37:9 is not describing such a situation. I don't see that the OT presents the idea that every believer receives the Holy Spirit within them. That is a NT concept.They felt the Holy Spirit dwelled among them and would settle on a specific person for a reason such as the prophets, hence the vision, but it wasn't permanent. So it wasn't a permanent "indwelling" as in Christianity today.Ezekiel 37:9-12 speaks of Israel's return to their homeland. Did the Holy Spirit dwell with them again?I still feel that spiritual death is a catch phrase that is manipulated to fit the purpose of the user.You say it is the removal of the Holy Spirit.
Another says it refers to the second death.
Another definition says it is the alienation of the soul from God.So far we've learned that it has nothing to do with the common use of the word death and isn't a valid rebuttal to the examples given in Message 1.

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you cant read every verse in the bible as 'plain text' for the reason that the Hebrew language is full of metaphors and figures of speech. English cannot always convey those hidden meanings. You need to know a bit about Hebrew.

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Sure we can. Plain text takes into account metaphors and figures of speech. I'm not looking for the sod or hidden meaning. I'm looking at p'shat.

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this is exactly what im saying. A persons own spirit, or their driving force, is not contingent on having Gods holy spirit. But when they do have it, they are 'spiritually alive'

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From the ancient Jewish perspective, the Holy spirit is not a permanent resident in an individual. So from your usage the people are normally in a state of "spiritual death".

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You need to separate the persons physical spirit (breath/driving force) from the spirit of God. When Gods spirit is upon his people, they are spiritually alive by virtue of having his spirit/holy spirit with them. But if he removes his spirit from them, then they are still living, but are spiritually dead in his eyes because they do not live with his spirit.

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I'm not the one mushing them together. The definitions I've shown you are not mine.I said several times that Ezekiel 37:9 is saying that God is reuniting and rebuilding Israel. The wording is all creative. The Holy Spirit is not mentioned. There seems to be a difference between God's breath that gives actual life and the Holy Spirit that hangs around and settles on people now and again.I feel you putting more into the text than is there. Yes the people in exile feel bad and feel they'll never see their homeland, but as I've shown the Holy Spirit isn't considered a resident within each individual at that time or before the exile. The Holy Spirit settled on specific people for special tasks.So the idea that "spiritual death" deals with having or not having the Holy Spirit doesn't fit with the thoughts of the time since the Holy Spirit wasn't a permanent resident within each individual. Show me that before the exile the Jews thought the Holy Spirit was a resident within each individual, not just in their midst.

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Ezekiel 37:26
And I will place them and multiply them and place my sanctuary in the midst of them to time indefinite.

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Apparently not.

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it has nothing to do with physical death. It has everything to do with your OP about 'spiritual death' and 'spiritual life'

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The verses in the OP deal with real physical death.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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I don't like the word "creatively." I would simply say: "death in the Bible means separation and not extinction." As I quoted earlier:

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NET study note for Gen 2:17 writes:

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Death is essentially separation. To die physically means separation from the land of the living, but not extinction. To die spiritually means to be separated from God.

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Unfortunately when you say that death means separation, that is how it is being used; creatively. The word death when referring to living creatures means a permanent cessation of all vital functions or when referring to the non-living the passing or destruction of something inanimate. Death, dead, or die do not carry the definition of separation currently or in the OT; but the word can be used creatively to convey other meanings.The excerpt from the NET study note is a creative religious view of death. As the NET study note said before the separation quote. My NIV study note says: Despite the serpent's denial, disobeying God ultimately results in death.The OT writers had words that reflected alienation and separation as you have shown, so why the need to turn the words used for death to mean a spiritual death and not a physical death that the words do mean?Associating spiritual death with the Hebrew words translated as death in the OT is a later practice.Gen 2:17 does not refer to spiritual. It simply means die or to be killed, the standard definition.

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Yes. As you have claimed, "soul" is essentially identical to "whole person" in the OT. I don't see that this causes a problem for the concept of spiritual death; the people have become separated from God (spiritually dead) because of their sins.

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It's not a problem, until one wants to force it on verses like Gen 2:17, Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20 to warp the meaning of death and change the simple meaning of the passage.

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The view that there are three different kinds of death mentioned in the Bible is a fairly standard, orthodox Christian understanding, so far as I know. Here are some quotes from The Death of Death | Bible.org:

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I agree that some Churches present three types of death. Notice the article uses the Adam and Eve story as an example of spiritual death, not Isaiah. I still disagree that the Adam and Eve story speaks of spiritual death. This is a creation of the later Christian Theology and not reflected in the A&E story by the word die. Notice the natural man is considered spiritually dead with no regard to his behavior. The Israelites in the Isaiah passage were still praying to God. God just wasn't listening. So it wasn't that they weren't seeking God. What this author is presenting is not supported in the OT. The actual meaning of death is pretty consistent from the OT to now. I was attempting humor. Spiritual death on the other hand isn't very consistent in it's meaning. Christianity molds it to suit the purpose, but it is a later construct if not a Christian one.The word translated as death in the OT does not carry a meaning of spiritual death from what I have seen so far.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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no its not permanent, its something that God gives to those who obey him. Not everyone has Gods spirit so yes, many, people are spiritually dead. This means they are not in tune with God, they are not obeying his voice, they do not apply his laws and principles in their lives. He does not given them his spirit so therefore, they are 'spiritually' dead. Remember i'm not speaking about a persons own life or spirit here....im talking about Gods Spirit.

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I think I mentioned that the Holy Spirit and man's spirit are different. Even to those who obey, the Holy Spirit in OT writings was not a permanent resident with the person. That is a later concept.

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God does give his spirit to his people and he can also take it away. If he takes it away, then they become spiritually dead...like 'dead bones' as ezekiel put it. But as this scritpure shows, having his spirit is linked with obeying him and being in unison with God.

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The "you" is a corporate/plural "you". He will put his spirit in their midst, which is how it was before. Not necessarily within each individual. God is talking to the house of Israel.

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There are many accounts about people being given Gods holy spirit so its safe to say that the jetws did believe tha God gave certain individuals his spirit for different purposes. However the verse in Nehemiah shows that the whole nation was given Holy spirit to protect them in the wilderness. So the holy spirit can be used for special purpposes on an individual, or it can be used upon a whole group of people at one time.

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God bestowed the Holy Spirit on an individual or group for a specific purpose. It wasn't necessarily considered a permanent indwelling.As I said in Message 51: They felt the Holy Spirit dwelled among them and would settle on a specific person for a reason such as the prophets, hence the vision, but it wasn't permanent. So it wasn't a permanent "indwelling" as in Christianity today.Nehemiah isn't one of the prophets, but in 9:20 he is referring back to Exodus where God's spirit instructed people in various skills and abilities. Again it wasn't necessarily a permanent dwelling. They needed the skills to carry out what God commanded. It was only given to certain people, not automatically everyone and the story doesn't imply it was given due to belief or behavior.

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but you state that 'spiritual death' is not an OT teaching...why would you use scriptures that talk about physical death if you wanted to discuss spiritual death?

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That ezekiel verse "the soul that is sinning, it itself will die" is definitey speaking of physical death becaus 'Soul' in hebrew is the living person.

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Were you attempting to use this scripture to prove the idea that spiritual death' is not an OT teaching??

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As I said: In various discussions, the concept of spiritual death rises to help explain inconsistencies between Bible authors.The common Christian meaning for this phrase is separation of the individual soul from God.
From you we have separation of the Holy Spirit from the individual.
EMA implied second death, but didn't really expound on that idea.Now the scriptures provided by you and kbertsche referred to events showing separation from God, but not through death. kbertsche also provided a Bible study note that stated death=separation. So death has been redefined at some point to mean separation from God. That is not in the OT that I can find. Separation is a by-product of death, not death itself. The Hebrews used the words for separation or alienation when speaking of such matters, not death. (Yes, I know there are creative uses also; but that doesn't redefine a word.)That's why we're looking at the simple text. I feel that all the verses mentioned in the OP speak of physical death, nothing more.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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"The soul that sins, it will die". Yes ofcourse the word can be translated as stricly death, but God has dual purpose in the overall context, regardless of whether the reader understands it completley.

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As I said in Message 43, I'm quite aware that a word can have several meanings depending on how they are used, but they don't usually have dual meanings within one usage in a sentence. As I said and you quoted: According to Ezekiel, only the person who sins will be punished. This is the point of the three sentences. There is only one meaning.The simple text cannot be interpreted to say that the soul that sins will die spiritually. You can't turn die into spiritual separation from God instead of real time accountability for sins. The destruction of Jerusalem was coming. There was a very real threat of physical death. The point was for them to repent before the destruction. Chapter 21+

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Your making a really simple thing very complicated.

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Right back at ya.

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Attempting to intimate that spiritual death is not biblical from the word alone is both nonsensical and unscriptural

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Well you would know about nonsensical. Show me that it is scriptural among the OT prophets and the writers of the Torah.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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So you claim. Do you have any scholarly or textual evidence for your claim that OT death = extinction rather than separation?

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The dictionary. I didn't say that muwth meant extinction.I showed in Message 29 that it carries the meaning of "to kill". Ezekiel is riddled with the word muwth. Message 29Since how a word is used in a sentence can make a difference, I can't address the word generally.The word death does not equal separation, just as separation does not equal death.The word death can probably be used creatively to give that meaning, but the word itself does not mean separation.In the verses I provided in the OP the usage of the word die does not mean separation. It means to kill.Neither of your options is true.

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Since Adam and Eve did not physically die immediately after they ate the fruit, we can infer that either God was not speaking of physical death, or His prophecy was wrong. Rejecting the latter possibility as against the character of God revealed in the OT, we infer that the death spoken of was a non-physical death of some sort. The rest of the account shows us the effects of Adam & Eve's sin, with separation, alienation, and gradual decay of society. We can infer from the account that eating the fruit caused some sort of negative inner (spiritual) change in Adam & Eve. Correlating this data, we could conclude that Adam & Eve had experienced "spiritual death". But I agree that much of this is inferrential, and I'm not sure we can go much further in defining spiritual death from the OT alone.

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So in Message 34 when you said you saw my point, apparently you didn't.We can infer that the fruit wasn't poisonous and that God changed his mind. No you can't infer (to derive as a conclusion from facts or premises) all the rest from the simple reading of the text.Why is the option always nonphysical death, God lied, or God is wrong?
Why can't God just change his mind? Is he not allowed?
Listeners would be relieved to know that the lovers weren't going to be killed. God chose to show mercy. That option plays right into God's character as portrayed in the OT.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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It CAN mean "to kill," but only if it is in the Polel or Hifil stem. (But you seem to want to read it as "to be killed" which would require the Hofal stem.) In the Qal stem, as in Gen 2:17, it CANNOT mean "to kill" or "to be killed." Here it can only mean "to die," and the best dictionary definition from context is "2) to die (as penalty), be put to death".

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If someone is put to death, they are killed. They don't die of natural causes.

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This only tells us that muwt means "to die." It does not tell us how they understood death; was it extinction, or separation? You seem to be assuming that they understood it as extinction. If so, do you have any support for this?

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I get the feeling you referring to what happens after a person is buried, an afterlife. I'm not referring to the afterlife.Death means a permanent cessation of all vital functions. There is no evidence that the ancient Hebrews thought otherwise. Now what they thought happened after the body died has nothing to do with the definition of the word death.The word death does not mean extinction or separation. Extinction or separation are possible by-products of death.

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Yes, I suppose this could be another inference. But the OT tells us that God does not change His mind (Num 23:19), and in the few places that He seems to do so the text comments on it. Since we see no such comment relating to Gen 2:17, I think it highly unlikely that God changed His mind here.

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I think it is very likely that he changed his mind and no I don't find that in conflict with Numbers 23:19. In Numbers, God is now the leader of the Israelite Nation. He is telling the leader of another nation that he will not change his mind and curse his chosen people. He isn't going to behave as man does and turn on his people.This doesn't preclude God from changing his mind, if he chooses to. Cursing his own chosen nation is not showing mercy. Choosing not to kill someone for misbehavior is showing mercy. To show mercy, God has to be capable of changing his mind.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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Does Samuel count as an Old Testament prophet? Read 1 Samuel 28:6-25. No doubt you have ready explanation as to why this illustration from one of the prophets, does not count as soul apart from body and why death means extinction or cessation.

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Yes, it is. It is difficult to address issues you have created for me instead of what I've actually said. In Message 38, I provided information on what the Jews may have believed concerning the afterlife before Greek influence. This doesn't create an issue with the verse from 1 Samuel.

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Nonetheless it shatters your contention that these people did not have a conception of spirit apart from body and death as separation from God.

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That isn't my contention.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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This is what I meant by "extinction." What is your evidence that the ancient Hebrews viewed death as you describe instead of as a "separation" of body from soul? How can you be sure that you are not reading a modern definition back into an ancient text? (We've seen from the usages of "sheol" that they did believe in continued existence with separation of body and soul after death.)

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I addressed that in Message 38.If you feel I am reading a modern definition back into an ancient text, then show me; don't ask me.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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The other plain and simple statement in theses passages is that the soul, physical or otherwise "IT WILL DIE", since these people did not die and some lived nearly 1000 years, your contention that the plain and simple text must be observed falls to the ground.

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What are you talking about? You're misrepresenting my answer. Don't take my answer concerning a specific verse and apply it to another. I don't see the people in Ezekiel's time living to nearly 1000 years.

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It also demonstrates that there is another definition of the word death other than the one you offer. Unless youare prepared to demonstrate that in each instance God changed his mind or he lied.

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I see, you're back to Adam and Eve. The definition of the word death is not mine. It came from the dictionary. I haven't claimed that every usage of the word translated as die or death indicates God changed his mind. Again, you're misrepresenting my position. If you have a specific verse other than the ones I mentioned, share it. We can discuss how the word death is used in the writing.

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I have now presented another definition of the word death than purposed by yourself. Which means if we incorperate the rest of the scriptures, those both close to the Prohets and Torah, that we can get an overall BIBLICAL picture of Spiritual death.

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What different meaning have you presented and concerning what verse?

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You do not have right to set out what the scriptures have to say about a topic by isolating a faulty principle to a set of writings. Unless you are prepared to demonstrate that death in those passages does not mean Spiritual and that the rest of the BIBLICAL record is not Gods word.

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I have already shown that death in the simple reading of the verses in the OP do not mean spiritual. Stating that the Bible is God's word does not change the simple reading of the text. Even you can't take away the simple reading of the text.

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Your position is faulty, illogical, unscriptural and unwarrented from nearly every perspective.

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So show me that my position (my real position) is unscriptural. Don't just say it.

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This is called a 'Strawman' in argumentation, there are to many things you need to establish before hand to demonstrate that your OP is valid. This is not how argumentation works, that is the way you are proceeding

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Fortunately for me my argument is not a strawman. You are the one misrepresenting my position and claiming victory.I have asked you several times to stop putting false words in my "mouth". Please do not continue this behavior. It is very unseemly and unacceptable for someone who is arguing from a seemingly conservative Christian position.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz