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Author | Topic: Spiritual Death is Not Biblical | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:This is a misrepresentation of what I've said concerning Genesis 2:17 and death. So there's 1. In Message 25, I responded to your Message 23 with this statement: The word translated as die, means to kill. As the story progresses we see that God didn't kill them for their transgression and chose to throw them out of the Garden. Whether God lied or changed his mind is irrelevant. Adam and Eve were relocated and penalized; but they still had contact with God (Chapter 4), so they hadn't fallen out of favor with God. God even gave Eve a son to replace Abel. I explained it again in Message 29 in a response to kbertsche. I stated: In the story God says that if they eat of the tree they will die. So death is the penalty for eating from the tree. If we were hearing the story for the first time, we might think the tree is poisonous, but once they eat of the tree we know that the tree isn't poisonous. So for Adam and Eve to die the day they eat, they would have to be killed. I think we have become so accustomed to the story that the drama is lost.
quote:You said that in Message 28 also. But it doesn't hold water because you continued to misrepresent my position concerning the word death. quote:Another misrepresentation. This concerns Ezekiel 18:20. That's 2. In Message 15, I stated: My contention is that Ezekiel meant the one who sins will pay the price for the sin, not the rest of his family. Real time penalty for real time sin. If you feel he meant spiritual death, please show evidence to support your position. BTW, you provided no evidence. Again in Message 32, I stated: The word translated as soul is nephesh, which refers to a living being and the word translated as die is muwth which refers to physical death. Death is stated as the punishment for sin. According to Ezekiel, only the person who sins will be punished.You even quoted it in Message 59. The text doesn't provide info on how soon the penalty will follow and I didn't claim it did.
quote:I'm not limiting the definition of death. The definition of death is already limited. I, a mere mortal, shouldn't have to tell you what books are inspired and which are God's word. If God is speaking of something other than physical death in the simple reading of a text provided, then show it. So far you've shown that later theology considers it other than physical. As I explained in Message 1: In various discussions, the concept of spiritual death rises to help explain inconsistencies between Bible authors. These center around the word translated as die in the examples I provided. If you are unable to show me that the word translated as die in the OT refers to a spiritual death using the simple reading of the OT books, then I do feel it is a later concept projected backwards and doesn't reflect the simple reading of the text for the word die in the examples I provided. I have not insisted this is all the Bible has to say. Another misrepresentation. That's 3. In Message 10, I stated:My topic statement tells readers that I am focusing this topic on the OT prophets and the writers of the Torah (1st five books). (Admins like the topics narrowly focused.) In Message 43, I stated: I made it very clear in Message 1, Message 6, and Message 10 that this discussion deals with the plain text of the Bible.
P'shat (Plain Text) The p'shat is the plain, simple meaning of the text. The understanding of scripture in its natural, normal sense using the customary meanings of the word’s being used, literary style, historical and cultural setting, and context. The p'shat is the keystone of Scripture understanding. If we discard the p'shat we lose any real chance of an accurate understanding and we are no longer objectively deriving meaning from the Scriptures (exegesis), but subjectively reading meaning into the scriptures (eisogesis). The Talmud states that no passage loses its p'shat: Talmud Shabbat 63a - Rabbi Kahana objected to Mar son of Rabbi Huna: But this refers to the words of the Torah? A verse cannot depart from its plain meaning, he replied. Now if you don't believe one should study the simple meaning of the text or are incapable of comprehending the simple meaning of the text, you should not have taken part in this thread.
quote:The first half is right, but the second half is wrong. They are quite clear what God had in mind. This discussion is not looking for hidden meanings. quote:My limits only limit you, they don't limit God. If you truly feel the words are inspired by God, then you should embrace the simple meaning and not be afraid of it. quote:Sure it did. The text was quite clear. Now that we know the simple text refers to a physical death and not a spiritual death. quote:As are you. Again, my personal position is irrelevant to the discussion. Just argue the position presented (the real position). quote:As I explained in Message 4, that is the title of the thread. The title is not the discussion. But as I explained to you in Message 10 Biblical means being in accord with the Bible. This discussion has been limited to specific books of the OT or Jewish Bible. quote:You're still just talking, not showing evidence that what you're saying is so. As I said in Message 10: Where you pull your information from for your argument is up to you, but if you bring up a later concept and apply it to the past; you also need to provide support as to how the plain text in the past says what you claim it says. quote:There are 3 shown above, which pretty much reflects most of what you've been misrepresenting throughout the thread. quote:I have already demonstrated and you agreed (read quote above) that in the simple meaning of the text death refers to physical death in the verses I supplied. quote:My personal position is irrelevant to the discussion. The fact that you seem to need it is fascinating. Argue the position and not the person. EMA, this is the last time I'm going to explain the topic, repeat myself, and respond to your off topic complaints. If you don't want to discuss the simple reading of the text, then don't participate. If you continue complaining and not addressing the topic or continue to get personal and not address the topic, I will call a moderator. The discussion needs to move forward and you seem to be stuck at the beginning. To other participants: Please move the discussion forward. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote: Genesis 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." You have agreed that in the simple reading of the text, the word translated as die implies cessation of life. But you feel the simple reading doesn't imply what type of death. The answer depends on whether the people of the time felt the spirit could die. If the spirit can't die, then the type of death is easy. God is speaking to Adam and saying that Adam will die if he eats from the tree. God is referring to a normal physical death. Since the spirit can't die, the word death would not be referring to the spirit. If the spirit can die (as in cease to exist), then again the type is still easy. The body can't live without the spirit. In the OT the spirit is the breath within us. If the spirit dies, the body dies. So the result is still a physical death. So in the simple reading of Genesis 2:17, God was referring to physical death when he told Adam he would die if he ate from the tree. Anyone listening to the story for the first time would also understand God to be speaking of physical death. Now if spiritual death means separation or alienation of the soul from God, then the simple reading of the verse is not referring to spiritual death. God only speaks of death, not separation or alienation. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:I agree that the concepts of body and spirit changed over time. The Sadducees didn't believe in resurrection or that the spirit continued on even as a shadow. We just ceased to exist. (Their thoughts, not mine.) So even at the time of Jesus there were two very different thoughts on the subject of spirit and afterlife among the Jews and the Sadducees were very strict about sticking to what was written in the Torah or first five books. The Hellenistic period of Jewish history began about 332 BCE. quote:Mark 8:36 The word psuch, which is translated as soul, simply means life. (3) By an easy transition the word comes to stand for the individual, personal life, the person, with two distinct shades of meaning which might best be indicated by the Latin anima and animus. As anima, "soul," the life inherent in the body, the animating principle in the blood is denoted (compare Dt 12:23,24, `Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the soul; and thou shalt not eat the soul with the flesh'). As animus, "mind," the center of our mental activities and passivities is indicated. Thus we read of `a hungry soul' (Ps 107:9), `a weary soul' (Jer 31:25), `a loathing soul' (Lev 26:11), `a thirsty soul' (Ps 42:2), `a grieved soul' (Job 30:25), `a loving soul' (Song 1:7), and many kindred expressions. Cremer has characterized this use of the word in a sentence: "Nephesh (soul) in man is the subject of personal life, whereof pneuma or ruach (spirit) is the principle" (Lexicon, under the word, 795). The statement isn't referring to the afterlife.
quote:Not without the tree of life. At the time the warning is given, the reader has no indication that A&E would live forever. The story does not imply that A&E knew about the tree of life. Only when we get to the deliberation stage where God divulges that they could partake of the tree of life and live forever do we see that they had that potential, if they knew about it. Instead of killing A&E God chose to separate them from the tree of life. The story doesn't provide enough information to determine if A&E knew about the tree of life and partook of it before the incident or not. The story does tell us that A&E were mortal. The tree of life would not have made a difference if they were already immortal. We can only conclude that they would have lived for ever if they were able to eat from the tree. quote:No quote:But this belief cannot be attached to the word translated as die in the simple reading of the text. quote:No, they would see a merciful God. Just physical death. Edited by purpledawn, : Continuing response
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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Why can't God be considered merciful in the A&E story?
The story does not imply spiritual separation from God. They still had a relationship with God after they left the Garden. In chapter 4 Eve said she had gotten a man from the Lord. In 4:25, Eve said God gave her another son to replace Abel. Although they suffered the penalty for their disobedience God was still with them. You may view that as spiritual separation, but the text doesn't support the idea you've presented as removal of the Holy Spirit. The story doesn't mention the Holy Spirit at all.
quote:Now you've stated that spiritual death deals with the removal of the Holy Spirit from the people. Now you are saying they left God spiritually. What do you mean by that? Just the worship practices? What in the text shows that all the Israelites weren't worshipping God? quote:They didn't choose to leave God. The warning wasn't if you eat you leave. The warning was that if you eat you die and the snake told them they wouldn't. Leaving wasn't a choice option for Eve at the time. Show me in the text that they weren't living according to God's spirit. They boys were making sacrifices to God. God gave Adam and Eve children. Adam and Eve are not described as doing anything else wrong in the story. Now they knew right from wrong. quote:But it isn't presented in the story. You're placing a Christian concept on a very old Hebrew story. Show me that the words express spiritual death.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:There is nothing in the story that states A&E did or didn't need the tree of life before they gained knowledge. We've become so accustomed to adding to the story, we miss the basic components. Adding to stories is what people do. They add to make it fit the current circumstances. But it is nice to just see what is really there. The narrator tells us that both trees are in the Garden.We know that A&E were allowed to eat from any tree except the tree of knowledge. What we don't know is if A&E did eat from the tree of life or knew that it was a tree of life. We also don't know if one only has to eat once from the tree and live forever or continue to eat from the tree to live forever. Genesis 3:22 doesn't carry the meaning that they had already eaten from the tree of life. Maybe they did and that's why they lived longer than most humans.
quote:That doesn't mean they were immortal, it just means God had no problem with them eating from the tree of life and living forever. They didn't have the knowledge. Genesis 3:22 is saying God didn't want them to be able to live forever because they now had the knowledge. Paul and John are a later teaching. How do their words change the simple reading of the text?
quote:We can't tell from the story if they knew what the tree of life did or not. Once they gained knowledge all we can tell from the story is that God didn't want them to live forever. Whether A&E knew at any time that the tree of life would allow them to live forever we can't tell from the story. The information isn't there. Just a thought, A&E didn't complain about not being able to live forever once they were removed from the garden. That would tell me that they didn't know.
quote:It depends on the lesson being taught with the story. The information just isn't there which allows the story to be molded as needed for lessons. The fact that the tree of life existed tell me they were not immortal.
quote:Without readers or listeners the word falls on rocky ground. The words have to be understood by the intended audience. The message of the story had to be understood my the intended audience otherwise it would not have continued. People don't usually save or repeat what they don't understand. Edited by purpledawn, : Typo "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:You're right, my bad. The story of Adam and Eve does not say how old Adam was when he died. That was added by the redactor after the exile, so we really don't know if they ate from the tree of life before removal from the garden or not. quote:That's not an addition to the story that is my conclusion given what the story said. They didn't complain about losing immortality. I would think that would be a bigger deal than having to plow the fields. Since they made no mention of it, my conclusion would be that they probably didn't know.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:You're jumping from A&E to Moses. So far, spiritual death has been presented as an alienation of the soul from God or as the removal of the Holy Spirit from the person. What you're saying now is that it is a change in relationship. What meaning does spiritual carry in that phrase? Does it deal with the persons own spirit or soul or is it the Holy Spirit? In the A&E story the relationship changed, but they still had contact with God. There was no mediator mentioned when God spoke to Cain. The story doesn't present a mediator.
quote:It is interesting the the word translated as forgive (to pardon) doesn't show up until Exodus 34, but the Adam and Eve story doesn't mention they had a need to be pardoned or had a lack of communication from God. The text of the story does not present spiritual separation as it has been defined so far. quote:There is no mention in the story of A&E that they (A&E) made sacrifices to God. The fist mention of sacrifice is when Cain and Abel make offerings to God. These are not sin offerings these are offerings given for worship or devotion, or a gift showing respect or gratitude. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:As you noted he made clothes for them. In Chapter 4, Eve said: "I have produced a man with the help of the Lord." She also says later: "God has appointed for me another child instead of Abel, because Cain killed him. Adam and Eve aren't mentioned much in the C&A story because the story is about Cain and Abel. Cain and God carried on a conversation. Genesis 4:8-16
quote:We only know what the text said. It doesn't say she believed or felt God helped her. She said he did. The story does not tell us that Adam and Eve's relationship with God ceased.
quote:I'm asking you what spiritual is referring to in the phrase "spiritual death". How I apply the word spirit depends on how it is used in the text and what word is used in the text. I think we're still talking about Ezekiel 37:9 and the dead bones. You stated that they had left God spiritually.
Peg writes: Ezekiel said that Isreal had become a pile of dead bones becauas they had been unfaithful to God....they were dead in Gods eyes because they left him spiritually. They still dwelt in the promised land, but they were not worshiping him, therefore they were 'spiritually' dead. You're saying that by not worshiping God that they are spiritually dead. That is a different definition that what you have given before. I'm asking for clarification. Earlier you said it was the removal of the Holy Spirit. What does the word spiritual in the phrase "spiritual death" refer to? If it deals with worshiping practices, what in the text shows that all the Israelites weren't worshiping God?
quote:They received a punishment for that disobedience. What about after that? The text does not say whether they continued behaving badly or they learned their lesson after being exiled from the garden. So we can't say that they were or weren't acting in harmony with God's spirit after the exile. quote:That's a later teaching. It isn't in the simple reading of the text. quote:Nothing in that text speaks of the soul, spirit, or the Holy Spirit. We've already established that the word translated as die, refers to physical death. Where is the spiritual part? Once they ate, they gained knowledge of good and evil.They now had to work for their food. Snakes no longer have legs. Eve would have pain when bearing children. They no longer had access to the tree of life. Exiled from the garden. IOW, they matched the culture of the story's audience. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:Support please. So far you're showing me that spiritual death is anything you want it to be.
quote:They don't ask to be forgiven in the story. It isn't the point of the story. It is a just-so story. It explains why life is the way it is. It is a foundational myth. That's why you can change it to fit whatever you want it to fit. The simple reading of the A&E story doesn't speak of spiritual death (alienation of the soul from God) in relation to the word translated as die. The text doesn't support it. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:The creative use of dry bones refers to the House of Israel. The nation is dead. (Ezekiel 37:11) The implication is that they have been in exile so long it is doubtful that they will rise as a nation again. "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are completely cut off. Ezekiel then assures his audience that God is still present among them, that God's purpose for Israel continues and that the nation of Israel shall rise again. The Israelites had lost hope, but that deals with their mood (spirit). What has been presented so far as definitions for "spiritual death" doesn't reflect it is just a change in relationship with God. The words death or separation used in the phrase gives the impression that the relationship ends, not just changes. Ezekiel doesn't present God's relationship with the Israelites as ending. Our relationship with our children doesn't end because we are disciplining them. ABE: I've addressed Ezekiel 37:9 in Message 19, Message 33, Message 47, Message 51, Message 53, and Message 58. Edited by purpledawn, : Added msg links "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:A&E still had a relationship with God and they apparently had an understanding of God. Love isn't mentioned in the story and whether they lost God's favor or not isn't mentioned in the story. In Ezekiel 37:9, the people still had an understanding of God, love isn't mentioned, and they did lose God's protection; but he is going to restore the nation. This definition of spiritual death isn't consistent. It's a definition that can be mutated to fit any condition you want it to. The story doesn't provide the answer to your "whys". The questions are from a later teaching. God sent them away to keep them away from the tree of life. That is in the story. What spiritual relationship did they enjoy? Where does the text cover this relationship?
quote:Ezekiel 37:9 While they were in exile, what in the text shows they didn't worship their God? Ezekiel 36:37 "This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Once again I will yield to the plea of the house of Israel and do this for them..." quote:Paul is a later teaching. quote:The A&E story is a foundational myth. It can be changed to accommodate various teachings. That is what Paul is doing. quote:Original Sin is a later teaching. Neither of the songs you quoted support Original Sin. Psalm 51 does not support that teaching. The song writer is speaking of himself. Show me that he is speaking of a theological belief affecting all and not just self depreciation. It's an individual lament.
Psalm 49 is a wisdom song. It deals with the question of the value of wealth, not Original Sin.
quote:In the A&E story, the word die refers to physical death. It is not written in a way to view it any other way in the simple reading. Just because they didn't die physically doesn't mean they died another way. The story doesn't present another way. quote:And how does God's favor manifest itself in real life? Does nothing go wrong for the believer? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:The state didn't create the prisoner. The story says that God created Adam and Eve. That's a very different relationship than a warden. Yes it is very simple. He created them, provided food for them, had one rule for them, disciplined them, and continued to watch over them. Very simple, but very different from a warden. Not a good analogy. A parent would be a better analogy. How does that fit in with the notion of spiritual death? The definition is becoming weaker and weaker.
quote:I didn't describe their disobedience as Original Sin. What Peg described seemed to be the concept of Original Sin. quote:So your contention is that all mankind since the supposed time of A&E continues to suffer from spiritual death? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:Then stop putting the word permanent in front of cessation of all vital functions. I haven't said that. We aren't discussing what happens after death. The uses of spiritual death in the instances I provided were referring to live people, not physically dead people. Does spiritual death refer to physically live people, physically dead people, or both?
Death - ISBEPHYSIOLOGICAL AND FIGURATIVE VIEW The word "Death" is used in the sense of (1) the process of dying (Gen 21:16); (2) the period of decease (Gen 27:7); (3) as a possible synonym for poison (2 Ki 4:40); (4) as descriptive of person in danger of perishing (Jdg 15:18; "in deaths oft" 2 Cor 11:23). In this sense the shadow of death is a familiar expression in Job, the Psalms and the Prophets; (5) death is personified in 1 Cor 15:55 and Rev 20:14. Deliverance from this catastrophe is called the "issues from death" (Ps 68:20 the King James Version; translated "escape" in the Revised Version (British and American)). Judicial execution, "putting to death," is mentioned 39 times in the Levitical Law. Figuratively: Death is the loss of spiritual life as in Rom 8:6; and the final state of the unregenerate is called the "second death" in Rev 20:14. Alex. Macalister There is a basic meaning of the word death. The word can also be used creatively to convey other meanings. The people who feel that the word translated as die in Gen 2:17 means spiritual death, would need to show that the word translated as die is being used figuratively. That has not been shown. Notice that the reference to loss of spiritual life in the ISBE definition is considered a figurative use.
Literary Devices Figurative language: Any use of language where the intended meaning differs from the actual literal meaning of the words themselves. There are many techniques which can rightly be called figurative language, including metaphor, simile, hyperbole, personification, onomatopoeia, verbal irony, and oxymoron. (Related: figure of speech) The ISBE also said:
1. Conception of Sin and Death: According to Gen 2:17, God gave to man, created in His own image, the command not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and added thereto the warning, "in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." Though not exclusively, reference is certainly made here in the first place to bodily death. Yet because death by no means came upon Adam and Eve on the day of their transgression, but took place hundreds of years later, the expression, "in the day that," must be conceived in a wider sense, or the delay of death must be attributed to the entering-in of mercy (Gen 3:15). Since they didn't physically die, mercy is what I have been attributing to the simple reading of the text. The wider theological interpretations cannot be gleaned from the simple reading of the text. Like I've said several times, we can change the story and interpret it any way we want to teach a specific theological lesson. That's why we are looking at the simple reading. The ISBE meaning of death agrees that the Greek view of the spirit is different than the Israelites.
This is decidedly expressed in Scripture much more so even than among ourselves. For we are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea, that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness, and is nowhere found in the Old Testament. Any separation of body and spirit is after death, not in life. Of course since the word death in the phrase "spiritual death" isn't using the standard meaning of the word death according to you, what is your point? The verses I provided were referring to the afterlife. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:There is considerable difference between a parent and a state official. So where does the simple reading refer to a relationship change as spiritual death? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3488 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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Hey Bailey,
Thanks for the background. I'm still trying to get a clear definition of spiritual death. It seems to vary. Death supposedly refers to separation, but I haven't gotten a clear picture of what the spiritual portion is referring to. Any clues? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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