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Author Topic:   TOE and the Reasons for Doubt
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 2561 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 211 of 530 (528216)
10-05-2009 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by pandion
10-04-2009 1:09 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
It was only later that the fossil record was found to support Darwin's theories. As time has passed, the fossil record has offered more and more evidence

Not according to evolutionists who are more highly credentialled than yourself, Pandion:

"The fossil record simply shows that this prediction [that future research would fill the gaps] is wrong. ...The observation that species are amazingly conservative and static entities throughout long periods of time has all the qualities of the emperor's new clothes: everyone knew it but preferred to ignore it. Paleontologists, faced with a recalcitrant record obstinately refusing to yield Darwin's predicted pattern, simply looked the other way." (Eldredge, N. and Tattersall, I., The Myths of Human Evolution, 1982, p. 45-46)"

Oh! I'm a Creationist and I'm using a quote! I must be quote-mining!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by pandion, posted 10-04-2009 1:09 AM pandion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Percy, posted 10-05-2009 8:30 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded
 Message 216 by jacortina, posted 10-05-2009 8:45 AM Kaichos Man has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 212 of 530 (528219)
10-05-2009 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by Huntard
10-05-2009 7:48 AM


Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
ok so now your quote mining me to teach me a lesson are you? lol

what i said was

Peg writes:

Now if you think about the sheer complexity of DNA, you cant possibly imagine that such a structure could come into existence without direction and intelligence...
The genetic code which is a requirement for cell reproduction could not have evolved for the reason that Proteins depend on DNA for their formation. But DNA cannot form without pre-existing protein. And without the genetic code, there can be no reproduction in the first place.

I think you know what i was saying...but to put it simply, what came first, the DNA or the protein. Both are needed for the genes to function and Proteins depend on DNA for their formation. But DNA cannot form without pre-existing protein

so how could they have evolved without direction?

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Huntard, posted 10-05-2009 7:48 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Huntard, posted 10-05-2009 8:59 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 213 of 530 (528220)
10-05-2009 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Kaichos Man
10-05-2009 8:10 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Kaichos Man writes:

Oh! I'm a Creationist and I'm using a quote! I must be quote-mining!

Yes, you're quote mining, which means taking a quote out of context to, in this case, make it seem that Niles Eldredge and Ian Tattersall believe something they don't. If you had them both in front of you, both evolutionary scientists of the top rank, and asked them whether they thought the fossil record was consistent with the theory of evolution, what do you think they'd say? Do you think they'd agree with you, or with Pandion?

Without having the full context I can only guess that Eldredge and Tattersall were addressing the concept of gradualism and are laying the groundwork for introducing the concept of punctuated equilibrium.

Creationists love quote mines so much because with great ease they can lift quotes out of context and make it seem like one of the great claims of creationism, that more and more scientists are rejecting evolution and accepting creationism, is actually true.

In a more general sense, quote mining is just the fallacy of argument from authority. Even if all the creationist quote mines were an accurate reflection of their author's opinion, evolution, like all other scientific theories, stands or falls on the evidence.

So I think everyone in this thread would be very grateful if the creationist participants would abandon quote mining and focus their attention on the evidence.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-05-2009 8:10 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:46 AM Percy has responded

    
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 2561 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 214 of 530 (528223)
10-05-2009 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by jacortina
10-04-2009 12:40 AM


Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
So far, you've done nothing but, is effect, declare the endpoint of a drunkard's walk to be the target destination of a second drunkard's walk and using the improbability of that outcome to claim the first one was too improbable to occur.

Buonas nochas, Jacorinta

(That's phonetic and almost certainly wrong)

You assert that evolution has no target. You are, respectfully wrong. It's target, even though it is unconscious of the fact, is survival. It's purported aiming device is natural selection.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by jacortina, posted 10-04-2009 12:40 AM jacortina has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jacortina, posted 10-05-2009 8:55 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded
 Message 259 by Blue Jay, posted 10-06-2009 12:45 PM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

    
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2789 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 215 of 530 (528224)
10-05-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Kaichos Man
10-05-2009 8:01 AM


Physician, heal thyself.
Put it down to the fact that it's a bit cumbersome trying to express unwieldy fractions. It's supposed to be read as:

"Four to the thousandth power, minus one, divided by four to the thousandth power". So that's a really huge number, minus one, over the same really huge number.

Then why not write it as 1- 4-1000?

I'd think the more important point here would be that if one is not competent to manipulate the math how can one believe they are competent to apply the math; or using any argument one does not fully understand.

Why does one have doubt about the ToE a theory exceedingly well thought out by hundreds of thousands (millions?) of people with a keen understanding of the subject and not have doubt about their own ability to criticize it?

Edited by lyx2no, : Change subtitle.

Edited by lyx2no, : Punc.

Edited by lyx2no, : Grammar.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-05-2009 8:01 AM Kaichos Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-06-2009 8:01 AM lyx2no has responded

  
jacortina
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 08-07-2009


Message 216 of 530 (528225)
10-05-2009 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Kaichos Man
10-05-2009 8:10 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Can you quote the sentence ... the VERY NEXT SENTENCE ... that follows that passage?

I can.

quote:
Rather than challenge well-entrenched evolutionary theory, paleontologists tacitly agreed with their zoological colleagues that the fossil record was too poor to do much beyond supporting, in a general sort of way, the basic thesis that life had evolved.

So, the context of the passage clearly states that Eldridge believes that the fossil record supports Evolution.

You use YOUR quote, leaving that part out, in order to forward YOUR agenda of trying to show that scientists themselves doubt Evolution.

That is the very definition of quote-mining and it is thoroughly dishonest.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-05-2009 8:10 AM Kaichos Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-05-2009 9:06 AM jacortina has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 217 of 530 (528226)
10-05-2009 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Percy
10-05-2009 8:30 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Percy, evolutionists are the ones telling the story and they print a lot of literature in an attempt to explain it

of course we read it and when the things they say dont add up to the evidence they provide, it leads many people to question them and pick them up on such quotes.

for instance, evolution teaches a long and slow progression from species to species, but the evidence is contrary to this. Rather then a long slow development, they show higher categories emerge in a very sudden way in the fossil record

that doesnt add up to what they claim evolution is about. If its a slow progession, then why is the evidence showing a sudden appearance of species?

Or do you think its wrong of us to question them because we dont do the field study ourselves?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Percy, posted 10-05-2009 8:30 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by Percy, posted 10-05-2009 9:44 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 226 by Coyote, posted 10-05-2009 11:02 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 231 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-05-2009 10:58 PM Peg has not yet responded

    
jacortina
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 08-07-2009


Message 218 of 530 (528227)
10-05-2009 8:55 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Kaichos Man
10-05-2009 8:37 AM


Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
You assert that evolution has no target. You are, respectfully wrong. It's target, even though it is unconscious of the fact, is survival. It's purported aiming device is natural selection.

This is every bit as absurd (and as indicative of a serious lack of understanding) as saying that unsupported matter has 'target' of the lowest height and the aiming device is gravity or that the 'target' of raindrops is to coalesce into a puddle with the pothole being the aiming device.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-05-2009 8:37 AM Kaichos Man has not yet responded

    
Huntard
Member (Idle past 368 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 219 of 530 (528228)
10-05-2009 8:59 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Peg
10-05-2009 8:28 AM


Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
Peg writes:

ok so now your quote mining me to teach me a lesson are you? lol


I didn't quotemine you. You directly said evolution was impossible without genetic material, when not two sentences before you were talking about that very genetic material.

I think you know what i was saying...but to put it simply, what came first, the DNA or the protein.

Completely irrelevant for evolution.

Both are needed for the genes to function and Proteins depend on DNA for their formation. But DNA cannot form without pre-existing protein.

Again, completely irrelevant for evolution. We have the material now, and it evolves.

so how could they have evolved without direction?

Irelevant. It is here now, and it is evolving.


I hunt for the truth

I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand
My image is of agony, my servants rape the land
Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain
Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name
Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law
My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore.
-Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:28 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Kaichos Man
Member (Idle past 2561 days)
Posts: 250
From: Tasmania, Australia
Joined: 10-03-2009


Message 220 of 530 (528229)
10-05-2009 9:06 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by jacortina
10-05-2009 8:45 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Rather than challenge well-entrenched evolutionary theory, paleontologists tacitly agreed with their zoological colleagues that the fossil record was too poor to do much beyond supporting, in a general sort of way, the basic thesis that life had evolved

Jacorinta, do you know what "tacitly" means? If so, why do you think they agreed "tacitly"?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by jacortina, posted 10-05-2009 8:45 AM jacortina has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by jacortina, posted 10-05-2009 9:11 AM Kaichos Man has responded

    
jacortina
Member (Idle past 3157 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 08-07-2009


Message 221 of 530 (528230)
10-05-2009 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Kaichos Man
10-05-2009 9:06 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
What, no apology for the blatantly dishonest quote-mine?

Frankly, without that, you've shown yourself as disinterested in actual information exchange.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-05-2009 9:06 AM Kaichos Man has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Kaichos Man, posted 10-06-2009 8:22 AM jacortina has responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18307
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.5


(1)
Message 222 of 530 (528233)
10-05-2009 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Peg
10-05-2009 8:46 AM


Contending in Vain
Hi Peg,

I have a long todo list. This weekend I just completed the in-message image resizing feature, and I've been thinking about what new feature I should tackle next. The "ignore" feature is looking mighty appealing right now.

But it won't happen right away, so in the meantime could you just not reply to my messages and I won't reply to yours? Thanks.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 8:46 AM Peg has not yet responded

    
Izanagi
Member (Idle past 3290 days)
Posts: 263
Joined: 09-15-2009


Message 223 of 530 (528234)
10-05-2009 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Peg
10-05-2009 7:25 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Peg writes:

But this thread is about Darwinian evolution and the theory that all life evolved from the simplest forms of life, into the great variety we see including man.

thats what this thread is about.


Of course that's what this thread is about. The problem is your definition of species is far different than what is the generally accepted definition of species. You define species as a larger group.

One way of backing evolution is by showing an example of speciation. But it's impossible to show you any speciation. It doesn't matter if a subset of mosquitoes are unable to mate with another subset of mosquitoes. In your mind both are the same species. The only evidence you would accept is a mosquito population changing into flies. If I showed you a bacteria culture that came from another culture but changed into bacteria with different traits from the parent, you would probably argue that they were both bacteria and so are the same species.

The only way I could even attempt to show you the effects of evolution would be if you and I lived through millions of years of natural history and watched a population change.

What this tells me is that you are unwilling to listen to consider the arguments for evolution. You've already decided that evolution is wrong and so have set the bar impossibly high. No amount of evidence short of you physically seeing a process which takes hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years to witness will convince you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 7:25 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 224 of 530 (528239)
10-05-2009 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Peg
10-05-2009 7:25 AM


Re: Some facts that you may not be aware of
Peg writes:

Izanaqi writes:

A black widow is a spider, yes? A tarantula is a spider, yes? If they are both spiders, are they different species?

no, for the reason that they are both spiders. the are different 'types' of spider.

You really assert that a black widow and a tarantula are the same species?

And yet I suppose you will assert that humans and chimps are different species?

Will you present us with a definition of "species" other than "because Peg says so"?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 7:25 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 225 of 530 (528242)
10-05-2009 10:49 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by Peg
10-05-2009 7:35 AM


Re: Some facts that Peg may not be aware of
No, its not a pamplet

its a 251 page hard cover with over 200 cited references in it bibliography

well researched and well written is what it is.

Ah, so you do in fact get your nonsense from a mess of creationist propaganda ... but it does indeed have too many pages for me to call it a "pamphlet". True, they have indeed written entire books of this gibberish: I've laughed at them myself, so I sha'n't deny it.

How about you try to get your nonsense from well-researched scientific studies based on the observable evidence?

Oh, right, because you can't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by Peg, posted 10-05-2009 7:35 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
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