Evangelical Indoctrination of Children

kbertsche writes:

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Who arbitrates such things in science?

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Nobody. Or, if you look at it another way, everybody.You are looking for authority in science and there simply isn't any. Things are true despite what anybody says, not because of it. We don't listen to Einstein simply because he's Einstein. It's that he can show his work such that you can do the same thing to see if it works for you.The only "authority" in science is whether or not the system works. It doesn't matter who said it. The only thing that matters is if the model works.

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Science has none of these things, so one could argue that the problem is more acute in science than in theology.

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Quite the opposite. Science has transcended the argument from authority. There are no "arbiters." Now, scientists are human and humans like authority, but the process of science is self-correcting and will work beyond the foibles of its practitioners.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

ochaye responds to me:

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So since these theologians all agree that these groups are Christian

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They don't, as it happens.

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And this would be where you start naming names. Who are these people? Why are your theologians better than mine?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

kbertsche writes:

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Christian, Jewish, and Muslim theology each rest on objective holy texts. Each of these religions tries to objectively determine what the holy texts mean. Each one explains this in an objective set of creeds and doctrinal statements.

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I think you are confusing literary and historical analysis with theistic evidence.The same processes you are referring to with regard to the Torah, the New Testament, and the Koran have been applied to the Iliad and the Odyssey.So why do we think that there is a theological significance to the first three but not the other two? Simply because we don't believe in the Greek gods anymore? Every text of every religion has literary and historical significance, but that has nothing to do with the question of whether or not god exists.Given that some of those objective literary and historical observations are that the story of Jesus, for example, parallels quite a number of previous divine stories (Dionysus, Mithras, Horus, etc.) and that there isn't any extra-biblical evidence of Jesus ever existing, how do we justify saying that the New Testament is something other than another culture's mythology?Certainly these texts are important. There is literary and historical truths to be found within them. But these books cannot be used to justify the divinity of anything.That would be circular reasoning.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

kbertsche responds to me:

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He was troubled that there is no "arbiter" of "true Christianity,"

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Oh, but there are. Each sect has their authorities. That's why there are terms like "excommunication" and "apostasy" and "heresy" and "schism."There is no such thing in science. Oh, there are quacks and charlatans, to be sure, but that is simply a recognition of people who repeatedly and/or spectacularly fail to provide the goods regarding their work while refusing to acknowledge said failure.Behe's a creationist, but he's also a capable biochemist. He still has his job. He still publishes. There is no conspiracy against him no matter how much he likes to whine that there is and no matter much of a fool he makes of himself with his "irreducible complexity." So long as he keeps putting out replicatable results, he'll still be a scientist.Cameron, on the other hand, was kicked out of every professional assocation he was part of because of his violation of ethical standards. He couldn't follow protocol, his processes were deeply flawed, his conclusions are trivially shown to be false, and he has engaged in outright fraud. And yet, he continues to this day to claim that none of that is true. He's a laughing stock not because of any ideology but because he's simply a crappy scientist.The only way to be rejected as a scientist is for you to stop doing science. Nobody else can do it for you.Compare that to Pius XII who excommunicated all Catholics supporting communism and those who are clamoring for excommunication of those in this country who support abortion rights.But then again, science is about things that are true despite what you think. When two people think differently, then the problem is resolved by going to the experimental results. Religion is about things that are true because of what you think. When two people think differently, each accuses the other of falling from the "true path."

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

kbertsche responds to me:

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I was taking issue with the claim of cavediver (echoed by Coyote) that theology is "extremely subjective."

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And it is. That's why I responded as I did.

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The study of these works should not be called "extremely subjective" either

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From a theological perspective? Of course they are. You're confusing literary and historical analysis for theological significance.

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since it rests on an objective text and objective techniques of literary analysis.

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So why do we get to say that Zeus and Poseidon are fictions why Jehovah, Christ, and Allah aren't? What is this "objective analysis" that you have that results in different outcomes?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

ochaye writes:

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The absence of a reason for that being difficult gives very good reason to suppose that it is perfectly true that everyone understands the Bible, and more than they want to in many cases.

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Ah, yes. People who aren't Christian are simply willful and spiteful children. They know it's the truth, but they just want to hold their breath until they turn blue while throwing a theological temper tantrum.How insulting. If you cannot show the same respect to people who don't share your beliefs that you demand they show you, why would you possibly expect to have your comments taken seriously?Talk about ad hominem commentary. Do you have any actual point to make or are we about to see yet another string of one-liners pathetically trying to masquerade as discussion?There are literally tens of thousands of sects of Christianity. How can you possibly claim that they "understand the Bible" when the people who actually want to believe it can't agree among themselves what it means?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

ochaye responds to me:

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People who aren't Christian are simply willful and spiteful children.

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The Bible does not say that. It says that those who reject Christ hate the truth

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You do realize that your second sentence immediately contradicts the first, yes?Consider the possibility that those who reject Christ actually love the truth and consider Christ to not be the truth. After all, two-thirds of the world thinks you're fooling yourself. Why should we take your word over all of them?They are just as sincere as you. They have just as much evidence as you. They can match you up and down the line in every respect. If you wish to have them treat your pet philosophy with any seriousness, then you have to return the favor.

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and by that it means that they hate the truth about themselves.

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Willful, spiteful children. It can't possibly be that they have given it any thought and found Christianity to be ridiculous. There isn't any way they could have had their own experience with the ineffable and come to an independent conclusion that contradicts you. No, you are the only one who knows what is real and what isn't and anybody who contradicts you is self-loathing.

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That truth is that they are sinners

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And they can make the exact same argument to you for rejecting their god. So who are we supposed to believe? Why should anybody pay attention to your rantings when all you do is condemn people to hell?

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i.e. they offend others in their actions and their words.

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And how does that not apply to you? You offend others in your actions and your words. What is going to save you from the wrath of the god that truly exists but in which you don't believe?You've fallen for Pascal's Wager.

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That unwillingness to admit guilt and behave in a decent, civil manner

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And what part of that has escaped you? You have been quite unwilling to admit your guilt and behave in a decent, civil manner. You've just called anybody who doesn't believe what you believe to be a sinner, full of hatred, and condemned them to hell.In direct contradiction to what your own holy text tells you to do. Your simple act of declaring anybody else to be a sinner has condemned you to hell, you know. Mathew 7:2.

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(and the Bible's God wants nothing more than that)

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So why do you defy him at every turn? It is not your place to judge others. God reserves that for himself. You do not know his will and you are in no position to tell others what to do. Remove the plank from your own eye, friend, before you dare to presume to help your brother remove the mote from his.

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might perhaps be said to make them bastard children

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What did you just say about behaving in a decent, civil manner? Are you incapable of any sense of respect? In the end, have you no decency left?

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but it puts them out of the company of the creator, and into the 'outer darkness' where their guilt and shame will accompany them for eternity.

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And what will you do when you find yourself cast into that outer darkness with your guilt and shame for all eternity while they are embraced by the god that truly exists?Remember, every response you have can be matched by those who believe differently than you. So why should anybody respect you when you show absolutely no respect for anybody else?For someone who claims to worship a god of love, you seem to spew an awful lot of spiteful hate.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

ochaye responds to me:

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I'm just telling people what the Bible says.

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Oh really? The Bible says a lot of things. You're being quite selective.

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I wish it wasn't necessary to tell people what my posts say!

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It would help if you would say what you mean rather than leaving it to people to guess. If you don't really mean the point you are trying to make but simply are presenting it as the ideas of another group, then why don't you say that?Do you not believe it? Do you reject this interpretation of the Bible?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

iano responds to cavediver:

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How on earth do you conclude Christianity as issuing any kind of 'get out' card - given that we (Christians) must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ?

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Because if only you believe and accept Jesus into your heart, you will achieve salvation.Sounds like a get-out-of-jail card to me.

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the product of a sorely mistaken Christians thinking - something I'm sure you'll agree Christianity as stating?

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Not at all, for a significant number of Christians believe it and can point you to the textual justification for it. It sounds like your response is merely that you don't like their interpretation, and we start descending into a "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

iano responds to me:

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I suppose it depends on what you call jail.

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You mean hell isn't as bad as jail?

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The born again Christian isn't involved in a race for his salvation

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But the point is that you can have this "born again moment" at any time. How convenient.

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Which is not to say that no consequences attach to his behaviour. Or that these can't be extremely unpleasant.

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If you're talking about a Catholic-like concept of purgatory before ascension to heaven, you're still talking about a get-out-of-jail card. The fact that you can get out of eternal punishment simply by having a moment of clarity is awfully convenient.

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I was addressing a person who described themselves as a (once) born again Christian and am supposing an answer from that perspective.

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That doesn't solve the problem. You're still looking at a "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.