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Author Topic:   Evangelical Indoctrination of Children
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 91 of 295 (524063)
09-14-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by bluescat48
09-13-2009 11:38 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
Funny how things turn out on this thread, since it wasn't even 6 months ago that Texas voted that every aspect of a scientific theory should be examined, and that the evolutionists down in the US complained heavily about it.
Wanting evolution to be taught as the truth, with no questions allowed, is also indoctrination as per your standard, no ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by bluescat48, posted 09-13-2009 11:38 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 10:18 AM slevesque has replied
 Message 102 by bluescat48, posted 09-14-2009 6:18 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 96 of 295 (524161)
09-14-2009 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by ochaye
09-14-2009 10:18 AM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
Ok, so indoctrination cannot happen in science because science does not recognize the concept of truth ?
How do you reconcile this concept of science with the concept of logic, which involves determining true and false claims using logical reasoning ?
I don't know if you see the problem here, but throw out the concept of truth in science, and you pretty much have to throw out logic also ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 10:18 AM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 5:25 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 98 of 295 (524173)
09-14-2009 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by ochaye
09-14-2009 5:25 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
This is of course redefining the terms, because you originally stated that science did not recognize the concept of truth.
ANd it would be interesting what these others sorts of truth are ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 5:25 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 5:43 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 100 of 295 (524176)
09-14-2009 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by ochaye
09-14-2009 5:43 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
I do not recognize that there are different sorts of truth, therefore logical truth was included in the sense of truth I used. This is why it would be pleasant to know the different sorts of truth you think exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 5:43 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 5:54 PM slevesque has replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 103 of 295 (524195)
09-14-2009 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by bluescat48
09-14-2009 6:18 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
this is what the texas board voted this april I think, which I was referring to earlier:
quote:
In all fields of science, analyze, evaluate, and critique scientific explanations by using empirical evidence, logical reasoning, and experimental observation and testing, including examining all sides of scientific evidence of those explanations so as to encourage critical thinking by the students
I find absolutely nothing wrong with this statement, and I find it very healthy for the scientific intellectual development of children. But the NCSE and other such organisations were against it, driven by their fear of the 'creationist wolf'.
The fact that this fear is legitimate or not is beside the question. the result, if we were to listen to the NCSE, would be a one way evolutionnary explanation of the facts, without being allowed for students to question it, either through logical reasoning or otherwise. I find that such a situation would be very much analog to the current one you are criticising here (the christian indoctrination).
Because, I think we can agree that teaching children with the 'this is true' method is not the problem. The problem is when the children cannot question what you teach as being true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by bluescat48, posted 09-14-2009 6:18 PM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by bluescat48, posted 09-14-2009 8:44 PM slevesque has replied
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 104 of 295 (524196)
09-14-2009 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by ochaye
09-14-2009 5:54 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
My 'truth' is only the common definition that some things are either true or false, and that this can be determined from logical reasoning. Yo uare the one claiming that there are multiple sorts of truth, and for the third time already I have to ask you to provide other examples of truths ....
The existence of truth is an axiom of my position and of logical thinking. The reason for this is simple: I have to assume that it is true that I can deduce the existence of truth through logic in order to determine if it exists through logic. Trying to prove it becomes only begging the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 5:54 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 107 of 295 (524204)
09-14-2009 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by ochaye
09-14-2009 7:53 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
WHat kind of question is that lol ?
1) If Evolutionists in this thread complained about something christians do, but that the NCSE would be guilty of wanting to do, I would find this thread ironic.
2) I find Irony funny
3) The NCSE wants to do something analog to the accusations pressed against chrstians
4) Therefore, I find this thread funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by ochaye, posted 09-14-2009 7:53 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 108 of 295 (524205)
09-14-2009 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by bluescat48
09-14-2009 8:44 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
I do find that your use of the word scientific theories is really analog to 'naturalistic theories'. Am I right on this ?
Because if this is so, then you are simply rejecting non-naturalistic explanations a priori. You are entitled to your opinion on this, but unfortunately, if you try to impose this naturalistic view in the education system then you are simply asserting it to be 'the truth', and so we come back to the original point.
As I've said before, I find nothing wrong in teaching children things in a 'this is the truth manner', and this applies equally to naturalistic explanation of, for example, the origin of life. However, in order to do this, you also have to let the children question and doubt these assertions. Which is what this' law' enables.
The fear of the creationists invasion in the schools results in the NCSE wanting to teach a one-way evolutionnary-naturalistic explanation in schools, without questions allowed or alternatives proposed.

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 118 of 295 (524283)
09-15-2009 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by onifre
09-14-2009 9:39 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
I'll be replying to this post, as it seems more complete than coyotes. Hopefully, my answers will also adress the points made by coyote in his previous post.
Science deals with the natural, not the non-natural. That would be theology.
Perhaps you are talking about theological theories ?
If the supernatural was to be the cause of something inside nature (ex: DNA, or miracle.) than it would be science who would determine it, not theology. So although science deals with nature, it does not have to be naturalistic.
In science class, science is taught. The "non-naturalistic" view is not covered in science, that's covered in theology class. Science deals with natural explanations and only natural explanations.
I think my previous point also adresses this one. But Let me hypethetically agree that science cannot alude to any supernatural causes.
Would you find it appropriate to talk about irreducible complexity, Intelligent Design, etc. in a religious class ? If so, would what they learn in this class come in contradiction with what they learn in science class (ex: naturalistic abiogenesis) ?
Are you honestly proposing that children be allowed to question scientific theories? Like Einstein's, Newton's, Darwin's, etc.? Really?
I think you have lost focus on what a childs role is in school. The child is there to learn. And while critical thinking should be encouraged, you have to admit, there are things that are just completely out of a childs level of knowledge, right? I would think questioning a theory like Einsteins is a bit too much for a child, don't you think so?
Do you feel evolution is easier for them to question for some reason?
Honestly, shouldn't the "questioning" of these theories be left up to experienced, trained and knowledgable scientist who know what they're looking at, and not a group of 5th graders?
I do not know at what age you teach evolution down in the states, but here in quebec we only had a bried overview of it during biology class in secondary 3 and 5.
Nonetheless, my opinion is that you do not teach things to children when they do not have the mental capabilities to question it. Teaching things to kids when they are not mentally able to express critical thinking on the subject equals indoctrination in my book.
Note that I am not talking about the knowledge capability to question it, but only mental capabilities. And so you teach the ToE when it is assumed that the children probably teenagers) are mentally capable of questioning it. Same goes for Einstein's relativity, etc.
Note also that this stage of intellectual development comes probably at the same time as they start to apply critical thinking to what their parents tell them
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix first quote box.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 121 by NosyNed, posted 09-15-2009 5:51 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 123 by ochaye, posted 09-15-2009 6:16 PM slevesque has not replied
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 122 of 295 (524303)
09-15-2009 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by DrJones*
09-15-2009 5:39 PM


Re: Instruction vs indoctrination
I would think that it would not pose a problem to IDers, since it has already happened in I don't remember what country about a year or two and they didn't complain at all. In fact, it was the evolutionists who complained about it.
If this would happen in the US, I'm pretty sure at 90% that the NCSE would complain heavily against it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by DrJones*, posted 09-15-2009 5:39 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 130 of 295 (524330)
09-15-2009 10:30 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by NosyNed
09-15-2009 5:51 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
I have no problem with methodological Naturalism in these terms, as to avoid the god of the gaps fallacy, you have to presuppose a natural cause to any event you encounter unless you have positive proof of otherwise.
I remember a post by Dr. Adequate which I had found very well written at the time:
Well, here's something to ponder. Consider what we might call a pure philosophical theist/supernaturalist: one who believes that there is a God, that God is the author of the universe, and that God can supervene the laws of nature. Let us also stipulate that our theist is highly intelligent, since the question is not what such a man might think given such a philosophy, but what he should think.
Now, my question is, to what extent should the conclusions of this theist differ from those of the naturalist?
The answer is: not that much. If the supernaturalist inexplicably loses his spectacles, he will suppose, and act on the supposition, that there is a naturalistic explanation for this, just like the philosophical naturalist. In trying to hypothesize what happened to them, he will be a methodological naturalist.
Unlike the naturalist, he need not reject a priori the idea that God sent an angel to bear his spectacles up to heaven, and will admit it as a philosophical possibility, but he will not attach very much weight to this. We stipulated that our theist should be intelligent, and this means that he will not commit the God-Of-The-Gaps fallacy.
No, the difference between them will be that the naturalist would tend to reject positive evidence of a miracle, such as actually witnessing the angel carry his spectacles up to heaven. In that case, he would tend to dismiss it as a hallucination; if there were corroborating witnesses, he might appeal to the notion of "mass hysteria" --- or, which is psychologically more likely, he might stop being a philosophical naturalist. The supernaturalist, meanwhile, might more readily accept the observation of an angel (especially if independently corroborated) as proof that there really was an angel.
When we look at the history of science, we see the attitude I have described in action. It is likely that some theists looked at a rainbow and uttered the Creationist mantra: "I don't understand it, so Goddidit" --- but their names are not recorded in the history of science. It is certain that some theists (the smart ones) looked at a rainbow, said "I don't understand it", and then went and found out.
Now, the relevance to the particular question in the OP is this. Any data that are really sufficient to lead a naturalist to conclude that evolution took place ought to lead the supernaturalist to the same conclusion. He might maintain the theoretical reservation that perhaps a miracle was involved, but he would need a good positive reason to suppose that this was the most likely explanation. For a mere belief in the possibility of miracles does not lead a reasonable man to make them the default explanation for phenomena.
That this is not invariably what theists conclude I attribute to two causes.
First, we supposed that our theist was intelligent. This is not always the case. The God-Of-The-Gaps fallacy has a powerful appeal to the human mind.
Second, of course, is the fact that theists do not usually start being theists because they have come to hold the philosophical position that I set out in the first paragraph of this post, nor are their further religious beliefs derived from these principles. Rather, they are taught from infancy to equate the existence of God and the truth about him with the correctness of their pastor's preferred interpretation of his favorite book.
Nonetheless, it is the case that a thinking theist will always (provisionally) accept that the causes of any phenomenon are natural unless he has a positive reason for supposing otherwise. Hence, as I have said, any data sufficient to convince a naturalist of (in particular) evolution, should be sufficient to (provisionally) convince the supernaturalist of the same thing.
i put all of it, even though it isn't all necessary to this discussion.
So here is my opinion on this: I am certainly not against methodological naturalism, since I consider myself 'intelligent' to the extent that I agree with Dr. Adequates view on this. However, I am against naturalism because if he had positive proof of a the supernatural acting in nature, he would reject it because of his belief system. The most explicit demonstration of this is through this quote by Dr. Scott Todd (Immunologist at Kansas state University):
Even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic
Note that he is not talking about if a single positive evidence of God was found, but if all the collection of scientific data was positive evidence of God, you would still had to reject it.
There seems to be this idea that methodological naturalism is so attached to naturalistic philosophies that you cannot take them appart, and so if you take one you have to take the other. But this is false.
Isaac Newton is the perfect example of what I think is the correct stance to adopt. He was probably the greatest scientist of all time, using methodological naturalism in all of his scientific inquiry. But, he was not naturalist, and he wrote even more on the bible than he did about science during his life. (Though he was probably a far greater scientist, since we remember Newton the scientist and not Newton the theologian ) His great comprehension of science and how it works never prevented him from believing in God, miracles, etc.

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Replies to this message:
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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4670 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 147 of 295 (524464)
09-16-2009 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Coyote
09-15-2009 11:41 PM


Re: Methodological Naturalism
I do nto know if it is me we misexpressed myself, or an unintentional strawman on your part, but that is alsmot the complete opposite of what I said.
I said that I was against Naturalism as a philosophical point of view, but all for methodological naturalism as a the method for scientific inquiry.
But to be back on topic, I really think the 'children camp' thing will become a dead-end, since atheists have equally started their own children camps. They even 'debaptized' kids of 9 years old.
Anyways, it is impossible to, as a parent to be neutral in the education of our children, Their are numerous adults here who have expressed their own concerns with their own kids, and how they are worried their own children might turn out religious 'like their mother' and so own. I have no doubt all these parents have all the best intentions for their children, and so they will not stay 'neutral' on this issue with them, even if it is not explicit. And I have no problem with that, because that is how they should react. Same happens with christian parents. To avoid indoctrination, however, parents should teach them how to think, and not what to think. This is why threatening childrens about hell is bad, and telling children religious people are idiots and so to believe in religion will make them stupid, is equally bad.

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