Spiritual Death is Not Biblical

It is never pointless for God to speak. It is profitable to take in the word of God even when you do not fully understand it. That has never changed.Here is evidence that the writers were faithful to record divine revelation which they may not have fully comprehended:Daniel was told things by divine revelation which he did not fully understand: "And I heard, but I did not understand." (Daniel 12:8) Joseph received dreams from God the full significance he did not understand until many years afterwards when he explains God's soveriegnty to his brothers: "And God sent me before you to preserve for you a remnant in the earth and to keep you alive by a great deliverance. So now it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharoah and lord of all Egypt; come down to me; do not delay" (Gen. 45:8,9)This was the eventual interpretation of his dreams of his brothers and parents bowing down to him. Years passed before its full comprehension for him was understood.The significance of an act of striking arrows at the intruction of Elisha was not fully comprehended by king Joash (2 Kings 13:15-19).The angel also expressed surprise that Zechariah did not understand a divine vision given to him: "And I answered a second time and said to him, What are the two olive branches that are by the side of the two golden spouts, which empty the gold from themselves?

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And he spoke to me, saying, Do you not know what these are ? And I said, No, sir." (Zech. 4:13)The angel did explain the details to Zechariah. However, I think we have to believe that sometimes the fuller meaning of visions or prophecies were recorded without the aid of interpretation.Some who did not believe the word of God did not understand. "Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Jehovah been revealed?" (Isaiah 53:1)The prophet is seemingly complaining to God. They have spoken for God but the audience has not received what was intended to be revealed. They did not understand it.God warns the scoffers that His word to them will require accumulation of line upon line and its fuller meaning must be obtained from not from one place but from different places. This seeming hiding of meaning is a judgment upon the scoffers: "Therefore Jehovah's word to them will be: Rule upon rule, rule upon rule; Line upon line, line upon line; here a little, there a little; that they may go and stumble backward, and broken and snared, and taken." (Isa. 28:13)Of course the New Testament tells us that let alone the prophets, even angels longed to comprehend some of the things written in the Old Testament. The prophets searched for fuller significance as well: Concerning this salvation the prophets, who prophesied concerning the grace that was to come unto you, sought and searched diligeently.

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Searching into what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ in them was making clear, testifying beforehand of the sufferings of Christ and the glories after these.

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To them it was revealed that not to themselves but to you they ministered these things, which have now been announced to you through those who preach the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit ... which things angels long to look into." (1 Pet. 1:10-12)God's word is a living word. And the Spirit of God "breaths" upon the word and enlightens the audience to the degree God wished.Moses could write things in Genesis which had one application to his immediate audience yet the living Spirit could illuminate deeper significances to latter audiences.

Explanation is usually an interpretation."And I heard, but I did not understand." (Daniel 12:8) That may be your contention but your title of the thread is hype, and false advertizing. For the Bible is not just the Torah.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Then why do you go into a discussion of Ezekiel 18:20 in your OP? Ezekiel is not part of the Torah.You wrote: I have no problem accepting that most of the blessings in the Torah are in the realm of physical life. I have no problem accepting that death spoken of in most of the Five Books of Moses (Torah) is physical.I also have no problem with the New Testament extending the terms life and death to add a more spiritual dimension. Notice I did not say add a spiritual dimension. I said add a more spiritual dimension.That may be a no-no to you. To me it is a continuation of the progressive revelation of God. Even if it was that doesn't make the fact of spiritual death not true. And that the New Testament writers inherited all their utterancess about life and death from Greek philosophy I would regard as unlikely.It is curious that you are so intent on eliminating a teaching of spiritual death from the Old and New Testament. As I said, I have no major problem with the Torah limiting its elaborations of the blessings of life and the misfortune of death to refer to physical life and blessings and physical death.And I have no problem with latter revelators expanding those passages to include a more spiritual element. So what?The concept of man being spiritually dead cannot be denied from the New Testament. "But Jesus said to him, Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead." (Matt. 8:22)It sheds further light on what happened to man when Adam and Eve were excluded from partaking of the tree of life. They were alienated from the life of God.That the new testament apostles shed further light on things written in the Torah is something you either accept or reject. As a Christian I accept it: " .... the revelation of the mystery was made known to me, as I have written previously in brief, By which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ, which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in spirit." (Eph. 3:4,5)This does not mean there was no revelation known by the author of the Torah. It does say that a certain mystery hidden from past generations was now being made known through new covenant holy apostles and prophets.These apostles and prophets of the New Testament are holy. They were called and set apart by God in exactly the same way Moses had been.Perhaps you have a problem with recognizing that the living God was still working and speaking in the new covenant as He was in the giving of the Torah. You don't have Paul or the Greeks to blame. You have to blame God. Paul is talking about abiding in the indwelling Christ or living by the old nature. This is why his prayer is that the Ephesians would be strengthened with power by God's Spirit into their inner man and that Christ may make His home in their hearts. Christ had come into their spirit as the life giving spirit " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). But they needed to be stenghened into that realm of the indwelling Jesus Christ. They were use to living by the outward man. They were regenerated with a new man and inner man. They needed to strengthen their bond with that new realm.They needed to live from out of that new source of the regenerated inner life. Had I been in the audience when Jesus said "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead by His mercy I would have accepted that His revelation of life and death shed deeper meaning on those words. I was not to resist Him in the name of the Torah but to follow Him. In Him was true life. And to not follow Him was to be dead yet while even physically breathing.Fortunately the disciples did not become ensnared in kind of interpretation rejecting Jesus' references to life and death in a way of surmising that He didn't know enough about the Torah. I am not sure how necessary that is to this particular argument. I already showed you that the mystery hidden in generations past was revealed to the holy new covenant apostles and prophets.If you reject that statement you simply reject it. But from Jesus Christ down (including His apostles) they shed a more penetrating light on many Old Testament utterances.It should be obvious that Christ the Messiah Himself, deepened the meaning of death in Matt.8:22. And of course the Gospel of John is filled with contrasts between spiritual ZOE life and spiritual death. But I suspect you'll cry "Greek philosophy!" so I refer firstly to Matthew's Gospel primarily targeting the Jews.Now having said this it is not hard for me to believe that God meant what He said when He warned Adam that the day he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil he would die. He began to die and spiritual death was the beginning.It is not relevant how much the writer of Genesis understood this. It is only relevant that the writer of Genesis was faithful to tell us what happened and what was said.We are aided by New Testament revelation to see that this act of Adam to disobey and partake of that tree brought spiritual death as well as physical death upon mankind.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I walked through your expounding of the Genesis 3 and still see no lie from God.1.) If we assume that "the day" means that very solar period of say our typical 24 hours, in light of the whole revelation of the Bible Adam could die thought still be breathing. Part of his being died.2.) It probably will be complained that the writer of Genesis HAD to have meant physical death. My objection is that the writer of Genesis had only to record faithfully what was SAID and what happened. And if the same God latter reveals in SCripture that there is a spiritual death, the fact that Moses may not have not known this as he was writing has no effect on that.3.) The tree of life God warns was powerful enough to keep man to live forever. But Adam was forbidden to have it. So the prediction that Adam would die was not negated by any potentiality.What COULD have been does not change what happened and what God predicted.So I see no lie on God's part whatsoever.The main contention with some is that it is not fair that "to die" could not be limited to the heart stopping on that day he ate. (Taking that "day" there should not be another application of the Hebrew word).Some skeptics would say "It is not fair that death should mean spiritual death in Genesis 3."I don't agree at all. The eventual physical death could commence with death setting in to another part of Adam's being and spreading its enfluence. In God's eyes he died or began to die the moment he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.Arguing that Moses wouldn't have meant that is beside the point. Moses only needed to be faithful to what was said and what happened.

That analogy is not bad. The curious thing is that God above all should know what is life and death. He is the uncreated eternal life and the source of all lives.That we would assume He's in need of education from us about the matter to is ridiculous.When He says "You will surely die" I think it needs to be heeded.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The concept of a spiritual death is not altogether absent from the Torah - the first five books of Moses. For my purposes I will define spiritual death in the Torah as being under God's judgment because of iniquity towards God. The concept is not as fully developed as in the New Testament.We could consider two passages in the Torah which very well may indicate dead to refer to being under God's judgment, thus separated from divine care and blessing: Here the Egyptians under the plagues of Jehovah God realize the divine punishments are to them a kind of death. "We are all dead men," means they are cut off, separated from well being, fortune, the blessings of the God of the Hebrews because of their national sins against the Jews and the obstinance of their Pharoah. This too could be understood as a man being under the judgment of God and separated from well-being, condemned, headed for punishment for the spiritual and moral iniquity against God.In both cases the deadness is do to being out of favor with the God of all blessing. God is a spiritual being in the Torah. So to being out of favor or under His judgment as in these two cases was a kind of spiritual death. In both cases it could culminate in a physical death if there were not repentence toweard God.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

For the immediate purpose of exploring spiritual death in the Torah I am speaking of the few passages which indicate man separated from the blessing of God and/or under His judgment or curse.Exodus 12:33, Gen 20:3 are both passages when either God pronouced or man admitted that he was in a realm of death.I am aware of different translations which is why I chose the 1901 American Standard which has a reputation for being "wooden", ie, adhering to the original meaning at the expense of sounding good in English: " ... We are all dead men." (1901 ASV) They feel they are dead because of the judgments of God upon them. Smoother English translations do render it "We are dying" or "We will all die". These may be paraphased for the sake of sounding better in English. A native ancient Hebrew reader might inform us. I do not read ancient Hebrew.And I will add another verse from Exodus 10:17 where Pharoah begs Moses to halt the judgments of God upon him and his kingdom: "Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and entreat Jehovah your God, that He take away from me this death only."The entire matter of Jehovah's punishing judgments were regarded as "this death". Jehovah is a spiritual being and Pharoah hardens his conscience against Jehovah's conviction of his sins. These are spiritual judgments of which "spiritual death" is an appropriate discription.The implication of spiritual death is in God's words linking death to cursing and life to blessing in the book of Deutoronomy. Life is associated with blessing, not simply with a beating heart. Death is associated with curse. The curses were elaborated ad naseum in chapter 28. It is not too much to say that abiding under such punishing curses was a kind of spiritual death for spiritual disobedience to a Spiritual Yahweh. Life is associated with good and death with evil. The evils are elaborated in chapter 28. To be under them, under God's judgment and separated from His blessing was the same kind of death that Pharoah asked that God would take away from him. Of course the full culmination of such judgment could end in the termination of physical life.When we look at the enjoyment of the Torah by and Old Testament patriarch we see him thanking God that he was made alive by the word of God's law: The Psalmist does not mean that God's word is causing him to become physically alive. Rather he means it is strengthening him, comforting him, empowering him in adverse circumstances. So the converse is that before he was quickened or enlivened by the word he experienced a kind of weakeness or deadness.The implication of spiritual life and spiritual death is indicated by this patriarch's enjoyment of the Torah. Psalm 119 is a psalm about David's enjoyment of the law of God. Yes it is a kind of death in that it is a loss of vitality. They are utterly weak in the face of God's judgments. Here the death is the abject weakness of vitality. It is a very straight forward statement. It is like saying we are as good as dead. They feel so because of their weakness under such judgments of God.The concept of a spiritual death is not as far away from the Torah as you portray it to be. Yet for Pharoah to say "remove this death from me" must mean that it is so close that its depressing effects are oppressive to him. For a brief moment he sees the oppressive and dark result of his stubburness towards the spiritual God of the Hebrews. The sense of spiritual death is not as far from the Torah as you would like to make it.What was David before he was quickened or enlivened by the word of God's law ? You may say that he was of course not physically dead. However he felt oppressed, depressed, darkened, dull towards God and goodness and non-vital.That the words of the law of God enlivened or quickened David proves that spiritual death is not as far away from the Torah as you would like to make it. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Let me ask you this. Genesis 3:5 says "God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened ...". Doesn't that "plain reading" of the text require some interpretation ?Did Genesis mean that Eve's eyelids were tightly shut and once she bite the fruit her eyelids would be opened ?I am watching closely how far this "plain reading of the text" concept is taken adherents, and whether it is applied selectively to arrive at a pre-conceived theological outcome of choice. I would want to see what is written above. However, we have to regard Sheol as more than simply the physical grave because of certain utterances in the Scripture. Some examples are given: Proverbs 27:20 - "Sheol and Abaddon are never satisfied." That means Sheol the place of the dead never fills up. But a physical grave can be filled.And Proverbs 30:16 says that Sheol is one of the things which never say "Enough". Though millions of people die and are buried in graves the realm of the dead Sheol is never full. Amos 9:2 - Though they dig into Sheol, From there My hand will take them ..." The indication is that could man possibly dig into the earth deep enough he would reach Sheol. Now this strongly implies that Sheol is some region under the earth. And if we were not told that some people descended alive into Sheol (Num.16:30,33) we might not have to regard is as anything but poetic. However we are told: Look also at First Samuel 28:8,11 and the spirit of Samuel which came up from the earth being brought up from Sheol.I have to run now. I will continue latter.

I suggest that you not try to tell me when and where and what to write on this Forum.

From one point of view God hardened Pharoah's heart. From another point of view Pharoah hardened his own heart (First Samuel 6:6).Because the final judgment was delayed upon the disrespectful and stubburn Pharoah he was more encouraged to go on in his sinning. You are arbitrarily saying death is used creatively in Deuteronomy and not so elsewhere.The revelation of Scripture is also progressive. So I have no problem with a more penetrating analysis of man's fall being unvealed as the nature of God's economy is progressively developed in latter books.You have to answer for yourself whether Jesus had more insight into what the Torah meant or Moses. I say Jesus had more insight into the entire Hebrew Bible.The earlier audiences may have been responsible for that portion of the truth which was revealed to them. Latter audiences were responsible for that portion of the more developed truth which was revealed to them. It does not bother me that an ancient reader of Genesis did not understand what new testament regeneration was. It doesn't have to say he lost his faith. It only has to show that his faith was strengthened.The last verse of the Psalm shows that when he was not in compliance with the law of God he had gone astay like a lost sheep. Returning to God's word he is enlivened: "I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek Your servant, For I have not forgotten Your commandments." (v.176) To be lost was to be weak to be found of God was to be quickened and enlivened. So spiritual death is not as far away from the Torah as you would like to imagine claiming that it is only a Greek idea. I am saying that being under the judgment of the spiritual God Pharoah regarded as death. The concept of spiritual death is not totally alien to the Torah. It is just not phrased specifically as "spiritual death". Not altogether true. Man's condition is most accutely diagnosed in Paul's epistles. But Paul was not inventing things in a vacuum. He had before him the Old Testament and the Holy Spirit to enlighten him plus the words of the Son of God. Ecclesiastes 7:26 speaks of a entrapping woman is more bitter than death. And the one who pleases Jehovah will escape her.Something more bitter than death from which Jehovah can save can be viewed as a kind of "spiritual death." Isaiah 9:2 and Psalm 23:4 both speak of the shadow death which could be understood as a spiritual depression, weakness, darkness, uneasiness, unrestfulness, anxiety, ie. spiritual death.There are many passages in the Old Testament that mention death. And I am not saying that they all should be spiritualized. In Jeremiah 21:8 the way of death was to actually end up dead by pestilence, sword, or famine. But there is no good reason to teach spiritual death is totally alien to the Old Testament.For instance, Jehovah says that He will take out of the His people the "stony heart" and give them a heart of flesh - These passages must be spiritualized. Plain reading does not make sense in the fashion that you use in a hope to eliminate spiritual death from the Old Testament.A heart of stone implies a non-living heart. The context is a heart towards God who is of course spiritual. So an hardened heart of stone is a figure for spiritual deadness. And the heart of flesh that Jehovah promises to give the people does not mean physical life but spiritual life.There is therefore in the Old Testament this contrast between spiritual life and spiritual death. We do not have to wait until the Greeks inform us by any means. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I agree with that. I already wrote that I believe.
The phrase "spritual death" is a theological discription.The question is is there ground for the fact in either NT or OT or Torah. I say yes. The clearest indication being in the New Testament.But a spiritual deadness is not altogether absent from the Torah or Old Testament as a whole. In the post which you replied to I refered to Ezek 11:19 and Ezek 36:26. Is "spiritual death" mentioned specifcally ? No.Look though what you have:The rebellious Israelites have a "heart of stone". God says it needs to be replaced with a "heart of flesh". In conjunction with this replacement is "a new spirit".I don't think you can ignore that sprituality is being spoken of here. And a heart of stone is a word picture for a non-living or spritually deadened heart. A heart of flesh, the new heart and new spirit is one a living spirituality towards God.In prototype form then I can I deny that the fact of spiritual death or deadness is addressed by God in the Old Testament? Remember - stone symbolized dead and flesh symbolized living and vital.Since it is a heart towards a spiritual Being - Jehovah, I regard this transplant as not merely emotional but spiritual. Please consider the examples in Ezekiel. Is not the implication that the Isrealites had a spiritual death towards God which required His promise of a living heart and new spirit ? I never understood Adam and Eve physically dying on the same day as when they were ate. Adam, I think, was surprised that he did not immediately expire. He called His wife "Living" - Eve, the mother of all living.This would better be discussed under what the Bible means. But I think this act showed some amount of hope within him. That hope was placed in him by God who preached a primitive gospel to Adam and Eve after their disobedience.There was death and disipline yet not altogether without hope in a salvation. I have been using the term comatose in regards to the damaged human spirit. But the dead is good too and it must refer to the human spirit in many places in the New Testament. One of the old threads that is inactive under Bible Study might be reactivated where we could discuss this more.The website below is on the subject of regeneration.I recommend it as good Bible teaching Witness Lee & Watchman Nee teach regeneration

Over spritualizing the Torah or OT is one danger. The other is dumbing it down to de-spiritualize everything.The former can make to much the interpretation of the Mystic.
The latter is the labors of the Humanist.I think the best teachers on the Bible seek balance. I think cultural backround should neither be completely ignored nor be a totally limiting factor.I don't think "a new spirit" is limited to a new attitude any more than Ezekiel's mention of the Spirit of God simply means the attitude of God.Because God then and now is abstract and man's creation has an abtract dimension as well, poetic language conveys what is hard for human language to express."There is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding" says the Old Testament. There is a spiritual component to man's inner being."The spirit of man is the lamp of Jehovah, searching out all the parts of the inner being".Dumbing down passages like this to just mean something of attitude may make the Bible more palatable for the Humanist. But I think you short change the deeper significances.The verse following Ezekiel 36:26 says "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and my ordinances you shall keep and do." (v.27)If you want to read that as God taking out thier attitude and giving them a new attitude which is His attitude, go ahead. Taling about plain words - "My Spirit" ie. God's Spirit certainly touches the matter of spiritual life.Some of us see this must be a promise of regeneration developed under the teaching of Jesus and His apostles. "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:16)" ... the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Rom. 8:2)Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It is more developed. Its development coincides with the further development of God's purpose and salvation.At the appropriate time BOTH are more clearly developed.Now above I would agree that spirit and soul are probably the same in many portions of the Old Testament. But I would not take it so far as some.For example - God breathed into man the breath of life and man became a living soul. That is a dichotomy.Also the spirit of man being formed within him in Zechariah 12:1 I think shows a dichotomy.Also the spirit being the lamp of Jehovah searhing all the inward parts of the belly (or inner being) shows a dichotomy. One has to be there for the other to search out and inwardly illuminate it. And I don't think the writer meant that the physical stomach is what the lamp of Jehovah searches out. I don't think God is illuminating the bile and gastric juices in the belly.Rather the conscience, the motives, the will, the inward parts of the soul are being illuminated by the spirit - the lamp of Jehovah.While I would concede that spirit and soul seem synonomous in many places in the Old Testament, exceptions do exist.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Latter information is provided in the Bible by which we learn the meaning of earlier passages.Genesis says that the cherubim was guarding the way to the tree of life. You don't know what that is until latter biblical books are consulted.Why not the fuller meaning of Adam's death also or of the significance of a tree of life ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I never in my life thought of cherubim as fat little cupid looking guys.No doubt we are enfluenced by what art work we consummed first. However, as a english reader I would not know what is meant by cherubim until one of the latter prophets like Isaiah or Ezekiel speak of them.Genesis was not written for me because I am not an ancient Jew ?
This is an account of origin of mankind not just the origin of Jews. The couple had life. So what was the need for a tree of life ?When they were born or created they possessed life. So the couple being placed before the tree of life must refer to something more profound.God didn't say that the day they did not eat of the tree of life they would die. He said that day they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they would die.This may be more a matter of interpretation of the meaning of the Bible. I am wondering why this whole thread was placed under Innerancy and Accuracy in the first place.My suspicion is that it was chosen as a better place to launch an attack against theological ideas of Christ as being eternal life.If "spiritual death" is after all not biblical then there is no biblical need to be reborn. Man is not "dead in sins". That Christ becaome a "life giving Spirit" to "regenerate" the sinner is not necessary. So I think this is a postured up theological attack of purpledawn.I consider matters of Accuracey and Innarency to be related to historical events or people recorded in the Scriptures, as to whether they can be confirmed by outside historical sources or negated.The whole discussion of "spiritual death" - is it bibilcal or not, I think should be in Bible Study or Faith. What is the innacurate or errant mention of death in Genesis ?Since the phrase "spiritual death" doesn't even occur how can you argue the errant or innacurate mention of it in the Torah ? It is not mentioned. That does not mean that the idea is not biblical.Consider this. In Genesis 6 God says His Spirit will not always strive with man because he is flesh. This preceeds the flood of Noah.Now it does not seem right for God Who had fellowship with Adam and Eve directly to now decide that His Spirit will not always strive with man. That is unless something SINCE Adam and Eve has caused man to be UNRESPONSIVE. Man is flesh, God says. My interpretation would be that man has become something changed in what God originally created him to be. While the details of this change may not be clear at this point, it is a change which has rendered too many men unresponsive to the Spirit of God. That is unless the grace of God intervenes - "Noah found grace in the eyes of Jehovah".To term this unresponsiveness as a spiritual death is helpful and IMO, not unbiblical.Enoch, Abel, and Noah seem not altogether unresponsive to the Spirit of God. So there seems something at work, some grace of God, to rescue some men from this deadness in their responsiveness to God.Whether one regards this unresponsiveness as a spiritual deadness or not may be enfluenced by how serious they think it is to be out of fellowship with God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.