Is Jesus God?

of course he was good in every respect, he was perfect Hebrews 9:14. And i provided you the scriptural reason for his goodnessJohn 5:19 "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner."Hebrews 1:3 "He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being"Lets be honest here, Jesus 'reflected' the glory of God including Gods goodness. But Jesus was not the source of that goodness... he simply reflected it by imitating his father. He saw the fathers goodness and he imitated it. you didnt use many scriptures to prove your point on this topic. You didnt explain why Jesus objected to being called good in the instance of the young ruler who addressed him as such. Yet the scriptures list many other people who are called good. So other created beings are called good by God. show me the scriptures that show that Satan sinned before he mislead Adam and Eve. Ok, so show me scriptures which state that God forgives sinning Angels and how they sin. There is plenty of discussion in the bible as to how humans sin...also how Satan and his demons sin. Show me from scirpture where God has forgiven sinning angels. So, we who are born into sin, without a choice, get thrown into the lake of fire, but Adam and Eve who were created perfect and without sin, became willful sinners were spared such a punishment. Hmmmm makes a lot of sense lol. Are they in heaven then? Were they rewarded for their bad behavior? Please show me scriptural evidence for your assertion. can you show me scriptual evidence that God forgave Adam and Eve their sins based on christs sacrifice? Absolutely. I think we can be pretty confident that the scriptural evidence is that the sinning angels including Satan have been judged, tried and convicted without mercy and forgivness. They are seen to be in a spiritual prison since the days of Noah when they 'forsook their proper dwelling place', and soon will be thrown into the abyss... a place to which they fear. They will also experience the '2nd death' which is complete and utter destruction in the symbolic lake of fire.All scriptual as you can see.

John 4:21 Jesus said to her: Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; WE worship what we know.

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Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh Christ offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear.

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John 20:17 ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’

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1Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus UNDER COMMAND OF GOD our Savior and of Christ Jesus, our hope. in all these verses, Jesus is seen to be in an inferior position to God. In the first he includes himself as those who worship 'what WE know'. In the 2nd he is said to have supplicated God. In the 3rd he confirms that God is his God. And in the 4th Paul says that Christ is under the command of God.None of them show him to be equal to God or to BE God. Its no assertion....It what God tells us. Ps 51:5 With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.

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1 Cor 15:22For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive

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Romans 5:12 "That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned"here is a prophet statement found at Ezekiel that applies to Satan. Satan was just as perfect as every other angel that God had made. Satan was one of the highest stationed angels and he was faultless from the day of his creation UNTIL he became unrighteous. show me scriptural evidence that all the angels are NOT perfect. I have asked for scriptural evidence of your assertions and you've not provided any at all. The ezeikel verse i just posted shows that Satan was Perfect and faultless before he became unrighteous. So please show me scriptural proof to the contrary about all other angels.

was the king of Tyre in the garden of Eden?and would God descibe a wicked earthly king as someone who was faultless...especially considering the king of Tyre was soon to be punished by God and his kingdom destroyed?This passage of scripture is 'prophetic'. Yes it is initially refering to the king of Tyre and the destruction of his kingdom, however it also prophetically refers to Satan....the Cherub. The king of tyre was never one of Gods cherubs.

you keep saying this, but you have yet to show a scripture that shows that all angels sin and recieve forgiveness.As the point you are making is not biblical, I do not accept it as truth. Gods word is truth and if what you were saying is true, then the evidence should be there. As it is not, i can only assume it is a man-made doctrine like many other man made doctrines that have no basis in scripture. the problem here is that you have one idea in mind and any scripture that contradicts it is disregarded....or 'trumped' as you put it.God does not contradict himself so nor should his word. Its time for you to marry up these verses so they do not contradict one another. You need to find a new explanation....one that does not contradict Jesus own words.

if you want to believe that God called one of his enemies a cherub by his throne, then you can believe that.And if you dont believe the bible uses prophetic and symbolic structures, including double fulfillments... then read revelation and tell me its all literal with no symbolic or prophetic meanings.

I've been taught from the bible and therefore if you want to teach me something, you have to show me from the bible. If it doesnt contradict any other scriptures and if the meaning of the original words are in harmony with it, then i'll accept it. But if you cannot show from the bible, I will not accept it as a true doctrine of the bible, and why should i?You are using this one scripture where Jesus rebuked the man for giving him the title of Good, and you are claiming that this means Jesus is God. If Jesus was God, why rebuke the man and say 'none is Good except God'? This would make his comment a lie or at very least, deliberately misleading.its the complete opposite of what you are claiming but you cant see that because you are trying to make the verse fit in with your man made doctrine.What you should do is accept the word of God...where ever it may lead. I've aleady posted many scriptures that show how it contradicts, but here are some more: Jesus himself confirms that he came to do Gods will, not his own. He is also seen to pray to God...something one does in faith. How could Jesus have faith if he is God? God does not need to have faith for faith is what we do when relying on someone else, as God is the one who makes all things happen, then he does not need to rely on anyone else.Also why would Jesus be called a high Priest? A priest is a mediary between God and man...if Jesus was God and was dealing directly with man, then there is no need for a mediary.and finally, why would he identify himself as the Messiah, which means 'annointed one'? To be annointed one must be chosen, no one chose God for it is God who does the choosing. So he cannot be the Messiah and God at the same time. being Lord of the Sabbath does not mean he instituted it. We know that the scriptures say God YHWH instituted the sabbath...Jesus was no where mentioned. If Jesus was God, he would have been mentioned in the OT however nowhere is God described as a triune God such as the gods of Egypt. God was always singular. that would be offtopic in this thread but i'm happy to disc with you in pm.

[qs=hERICtic]So basically you ignored my entire post.[/q]sno i didnt ignore your entire post.I gave reasons why some of the passage is a reference to satan. I said that there is no way the king of tyre was ever in the garden of Eden, i said that an enemy of God would never be called one of his cherubs... a very high angelic position beside Gods throne.How can it seriously be applied to a physical king on earth. Its more then just an exagerated poem about an earthly king. Its a classic example of how the inspiried writers can jump backwards and forwards between characters within the same passage. Daniel does it too.

there was never a city in Eden. Eden was lost after the flood. No one knows its exact location, so how can this mention of Eden be referring to a city with traders? It isnt. Its prophetic and symbolic. Just as mankind has their different stations (generals/captains/presidents/princes etc), so do the Angels of God.All of them, not matter their station, are still angelic sons of God. They are spirits. They are also termed sons of the true God, morning stars, and holy myriads. There is one Arch Angel, mentioned at Jude 6. Isaiah 6;2 mentions the Seraphs who have 6 wings (obviously not literal becaues spiritual creatures do not have physical bodies) The Cherubs are also metioned...2 of these were stationed at the garden of Eden to prevent entry. Then there is a large number of angelic messengers. These are all angels, they all serve God, the are all spirits.Paul didnt distinguish between any of the spirits when he said of them at hebews 1:13-14 But with reference to which one of the angels has he ever said: Sit at my right hand, until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet? 14Are they not all spirits for public service, sent forth to minister for those who are going to inherit salvation?Yes, all the anglic sons of God, no matter what their station, are used as ministers and carry out Gods will. And they dont have literal wings...they are spirits, they are only said to have wings because of their ability to be anywhere at any time.

lol there are lots of small towns dotted around the world called eden, but the scritpure in ezekeil says that 'in the GARDEN of Eden you proved to be'There was only 1 Garden of Eden and God did not allow anyone back in there. Its a reference to the original garden created by God....and the one who was said to be there was also a cherub of God...the enemy who became known as Satan. Job 38:4-7 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth?...
7When the morning stars joyfully cried out together,
And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

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Revelation 22:16 ‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and THE BRIGHT MORNING STAR.’

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Psalm 18:10 10And he came riding upon a CHERUB and came flying,
And he came darting upon the wings of A SPIRITRevelation 7:12 . So down the great dragon was hurled, the ORIGINAL SERPENT, the one called Devil and SATAN. do spirits have physical bodies? No they dont. therefore their 'wings' cannot be literal, can they? They are only said to have such things so that we can relate to them.Spirits do not have physical characteristics. They are completely different to us.
1Cor15:40And there are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort.The word 'spirit' actually means 'breath' as in wind. Its not something that is seen becaues there is no physical characteristics to it. This is why angels have to appear in the bodies of humans...its so we can see them. It was for a while. But the reality of that physical representation of Gods Kingdom was located elsewhere.Hebrews 12:22But YOU have approached a Mount Zion and a city of [the] living God, HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and myriads of angels, 23in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been ENROLLED IN THE HEAVENS, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24and Jesus the mediator

no im not refusing to accept there was such a place at all. But ezekeil specifically says "In the Garden of Eden you proved to be"it also says in the same verses"You were made faultess" and "You were one of the Cherubs"Now im reading what Ezekiel is saying and there is no way to apply this verse to any human. there were only 2 humans who lived in the Garden of Eden. And no human has ever been called a Cherub.And in Psalm 18:10, the cherubs are spirits.... just like all of the angels are, they are simply a high ranking angel. The human king of tyre was not. c'mon, you can do better then that.You can clearly see that Jesus calls himself a 'bright morning star' and yet you refuse to accept that the scirpture in Job where the 'morning starts cry out joyfully' could be angels. These are not literal stars in the sky being spoken of here....stars do not speak and are not conscious. But seriously, if you are not willing to bend to the scriptures, then i'm not going to waste my time on it any more.You said there are no scriptures that state that a cherub is an angel. I show you a scripture that states a cherub is a spirit....you fob it off.You said there are not scriptures that say angels are morning star. I show you a scirpture where the angels are called morning stars and Jesus the bright morning star...you fob it off.You say that Job was refering to the stars of mercury and venus, yet fob off the fact that Jesus called himself the bright morning star. I mean c'mon. why ask me for scriptures if you completely trample them??? Ok, so angels are always described as being like humans. No problem. How about this description? Ezekeil 1:5-6 "And out of the midst of it there was the likeness of four living creatures, and this was how they looked: they had the likeness of earthling man. 6And [each] one had four faces, and [each] one of them four wings"or what if the angels are depicted as flying....should not this indicate that when seen in vision, they are seen with wings? If you saw one without wings, but flying, you'd probably be inclind to say he was 'floating' rather then flying. Flying is associated with wing action...unlike hotair balloons which have not wings but still fly, they really float and they appear as they are floating. But her in vision john describes an angel as flying. Rev 14:6And I saw another angel flying in midheavenand ill ask you, Was a man a cherub of God who existed in the Garden of Eden? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

i dont know why you keep asking me this. I've already said that part of it refers to the human king of tyre...but a certain part of it can only apply to a spirit creature who was in the garden of eden and who betrayed God.The human king of tyre was never in the garden of eden, he was never one of Gods cherubs and he certainly wasnt born without sin or fault. vs 17 Your heart became haughty because of your beauty. You brought your wisdom to ruin on account of your beaming splendor. Onto the earth I will throw you" and earthly person does not need to be thrown to the earth because they are already here. 14You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you
Could a sinful human enemy of God ever be an anointed cherub or be 'faultess' in his ways??? Every human is born a sinner...with fault.So i am not saying that the whole passage refers to Satan, but as you can see, some of the passage is prophetically speaking about Satan, Gods arch enemy. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

i already did answer them.... i agreed that they refer to the human king of tyre.I also said it several posts back that YES part of the passage is refering to the human king of tyre.You cant seem to acknowledge that some of it CANNOT be refering to a human king though. So who is not honestly debating here?But ok. If you really beleive that the human king of tyre was at one time a cherub of God who was created faultless and who was sitting by Gods throne in heaven, then you go right ahead and believe that.

because a prophet writing under inspiration is not going to write something that is completely out of harmony with God and truth.It is not true that any human born form Adam and Eve were born without sin. The king of tyre could not have been born faultless because all humans are born into sin. This is said in the psalms and in the NT. Even King David was said to be born in sin, so how could this enemy of God have not been???If a passage of scripture 'appears' to be in contradiction to other passages of scripture, you have to look for an alternative explanation because GOD DOES NOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF. Gods throne in heaven is said to be adorned in precious stones such as these. Ezekeil 1 describes the wheels of Gods throne as being made of crysolite. Also in Revelation 21 the heavenly city of Jerusalem is said to have walls adorned with all sorts of precious stones. There are no literal gems in heaven because physical things do not dwell there, so these descriptions are not literal, but figurative of something else.As these stones are precious and very expensive from an early point of view, they must represent goods of very high value. The chariot of God is something of high value, so is the heavenly jerusalem and so was Satan before he rebelled. there is no way of knowing the exact geographic location of the garden of Eden. This is because the description of Eden in Genesis is based on the names of 4 rivers that issued out of it... 2 of them are to this day unidentified. They are the Euphrates, Hiddekel (Tigris), Pishon, and Gihon.so you cannot say that Tyre was where the garden of Eden was located. Tyre was a Phoenician seaport whereas most scholars beleive the garden of Eden (based on the description of the 4 rivers) was located in a mountainous region somewhere SW of Mount Ararat and a few kilometers south of Lake Van, in the eastern part of modern Turkey.But the reality is that unless Tyre has these 4 rivers issuing out of it, then it cannot be the orginal site of the garden of Eden. Did the King of Tyre? The king who sat on Gods throne in Jerusalem was said to represent him... did the king of Tyre ever represent God on his throne and sit on Mount zion in such a position?no i dont think so.

Hi EMA, Thats not really the context of Psalm 51. According to the superscription, David composed this psalm after he had committed a serious sin. He expressed sorrow for what he did and begged for God’s forgiveness.Verses2 and 3 say: Thoroughly wash me from my error, and cleanse me even from my sin. For my transgressions I myself know, and my sin is in front of me constantly.then in verse5 he perhaps is reminding God that he was born a sinner as he says : Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, and in sin my mother conceived me.Iniquity means sin... your bible says 'I was conceived in iniquity'He's really saying he was conceived in sin. This is in harmony with Pauls words found at Romans 5:12 "Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.and at Job 14:4 "Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean?
There is not one."These verses show that all of Adams children are born with sin...or concieved in iniquity, as your bible puts it. the consequences for sin is death, quite right. So why do young babies die? Why do innocent children die? We call them innocent because we dont believe they have the ability to be devious, yet they are suffering the same punishment as all sinners...death. Why?There is nothing sinful about the world/earth we are born into...its not like the air is poisonous... sin is only linked with humans in the bible. Can you show me anywhere that says the earth has some sinful influence that it gives us?

well Paul does say that 'death spread to all men because they had all SINNED'So that should be pretty clear that we commit sin... we dont just live in a world with sin.In Romans 3:9 Paul says "What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin"Now this word 'sin' is from the greek ha.mar.ti'an and in hebrew its ha.chet'It means to miss the mark [as in spear throwing]. Humans are missing the mark of Gods perfect standards in morals and conduct and qualities. This is what sin is. Its missing the mark of perfection. So its not only what we do, but what we fail to do that makes us sinners. but sin isnt only about obeying laws that we know and understand ... there are also Gods qualities of love and goodness and kindness and peace. Besides that there are moral laws and justice to consider. If we do not have and apply Gods view of such things, then we are 'missing the mark' thus we are sinning. Even if we dont know what Gods standards in these areas are, we are still missing the mark.think about this... .Why did God punish and destroy nations that did not know him? The cannanites, the babylonians, the egyptions.... If sin was only a matter of knowing and understanding Gods laws, then why would he punish nations who were ignorant of his laws?Paul actually showed that even as a man chosen by God and given Gods spirit and understanding of Gods laws, he had sin dwelling in him
Romans 7J:18-20 "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells nothing good; for ability to wish is present with me, but ability to work out what is fine is not [present]. 19For the good that I wish I do not do, but the bad that I do not wish is what I practice. 20If, now, what I do not wish is what I do, the one working it out is no longer I, but the sin dwelling in me.Pauls words show that the beleived we were 'subjected' to sin thru one person. He already spoke about Adams sin being passed onto all of us and for this reason, Christ came into the world to act on our behalf because we were 'subjected' to this condition. [b]Romans 8:20-22 "For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now[/qs]Ask yourself why the mosaic law required women to present a 'sin offering' with the birth of every child.Even Mary had to present a sin offering after the birth of Jesus...which she did. The question has to be asked, why were such normal, proper things as menstruation, sexual intercourse between married persons, and childbirth viewed in the Law as making one unclean? You have to think back to Gods original purpose for Adam and Eve. In their sinless state they would have reflected Gods standards and given birth to perfect children who also reflected Gods standards. But because they sinned, they could not reproduce any childre in perfection. Rather, they would forevermore pass on the hereditary blemish of sin and the penalty of death would be transmitted from the parents to children.so the Law’s requirements pertaining to the functions of the reproductive organs reminded men and women of their sinful state. Jesus’ mother Mary thus confessed to her hereditary sinfulness, acknowledging that she was not sinless and immaculate, by offering a sin-atoning sacrifice after giving birth to Jesus. She was not a willfull sinner either because the Angel addressed her as a 'highly favored one of God'.... yet even this highly favored woman was a sinner. Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.