Creationists:: What would convince you that evolution has happened ?

Percy: "There is no such thing as proof in science."This is where we disagree. I contend that science not only can provide proofs but has indeed done so and continues to do so. Consider the existance of the microscopic world. What was once nothing more than an unproveable contention is now an established scientific fact, a "proven" fact. Would you argue that science has not proven that the microscopic world does indeed exist? If so, why?

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Originally posted by Jet:
Percy: "There is no such thing as proof in science."

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This is where we disagree. I contend that science not only can provide proofs but has indeed done so and continues to do so. Consider the existance of the microscopic world. What was once nothing more than an unproveable contention is now an established scientific fact, a "proven" fact. Would you argue that science has not proven that the microscopic world does indeed exist? If so, why?

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There is extreamly strong evidence that the microscopic world exists. It is a "fact", as in the scientific concept of a "fact", as discussed elsewhere. But it is not absolutely proven.Likewise, there has been a progression of life observed in the fossil record of the geologic column. This progression is also a fact (or a collection of facts). But it too, could be argued as not being absolutely proven.------------------
BS degree, geology, '83
Professor, geology, Whatsamatta U
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

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Percy wrote:
There is no such thing as proof in science.

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Jet replied:
This is where we disagree.

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When used in a scientific context I defined proof to mean, , "very strong evidence that would be acceptable by most people in the field." As long as you're using that definition of "proof" then we agree just fine.But if by "proof" you mean establishing something to be true forever and for all time then you are in conflict with the principle of tentativity. I didn't cover this before because I assumed it had already been covered over at Yahoo, but maybe it wasn't. Anyway, tentativity means that theories are always open to modification or even replacement in light of new knowledge or insights.Theories have to be tentative, otherwise we could never replace old theory with improved theory. Consider the contradictions involved if we "proved" theories like Newton's laws of motion to be true for all time. How would we replace this timeless theory with the theoretical improvements of relativity?Such conundrums are avoided by the principle of tentativity. This means that though we can increase our certainty in a theory by performing more experiments and gathering more evidence, the level of certainty never reaches 100%.While you will often hear it said that a theory is "proven", this is just a convenient figure of speech and does not mean a theory is true for all time. When people say a theory is "proven" they only mean that the evidence has reached a level where the theory is, as Gould says, "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent."--Percy

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Originally posted by Godismyfather:
Please, don't think I'm stubborn, I'm debating with an open mind, but closed heart if you will.

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Sorry, you're not debating at all. You're just witnessing. And whatever you're doing, you're clearly not doing it with an open mind.

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Originally posted by Jet:
In response to your question, "what is undeniable proof", I would say that it is anything that leaves absolutely no question in the mind.

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So my question to you is WHAT FACTS OR OBSERVATIONS would leave
no question in your mind that evolution has occurred ?If the answer is still 'Nothing', then you are preaching and not
debating, and should withdraw from the forum.

I feel no need to preach to those who have heard the Word already and have chosen to reject it. I would say, however, that the most vehement proselytizers today are the fringe evolutionists. Their desire to propagandize the world with their doctrine while, under the guise of science, exclude all other positional beliefs that are in opposition to the ToE, is second to none. The study of the ToE must always be approached from a position of acceptance in order for the study to be considered valid. Any approach that questions the validity of the ToE as being truly scientific is met with a blitzkrieg of aspersion, defamation, and calumny that would make Hitler jealous. Using tactics that tarnish the hard work of the honest and sincere proponents of the ToE, Nazi-like behaviours are used by a few of the fringe neo-evolutionists. For them, the words of Hitler, "Tell a lie long enough, loud enough, and often enough, and people will start to believe you", is their Motis Operandi. These few irrational evolutionists make the rest of their group look like they all are incapable of independant thought. That is most unfortunate. I have several friends who are evolutionists that I work with on a daily basis. Never has even one of them ever attempted to use the deplorable tactics that I have seen some of these neo-nazi-evolutionists employ. They would be ashamed to count them amoung their ranks. The exchange of ideas is the cornerstone of continuing knowledge. Diversity of thought is paramount to new and wonderful discovery. Fascism may not be totally dead, but it sure smells like a rotting corpse.

let us steer clear of the "evo conspiracy", OK. quit your yacking about how evolutionists suppress yec evidence, and show us the evidence!. we're all ears...

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Originally posted by Jet:
I feel no need to preach to those who have heard the Word already and have chosen to reject it. I would say, however, that the most vehement proselytizers today are the fringe evolutionists. Their desire to propagandize the world with their doctrine while, under the guise of science, exclude all other positional beliefs that are in opposition to the ToE, is second to none. The study of the ToE must always be approached from a position of acceptance in order for the study to be considered valid. Any approach that questions the validity of the ToE as being truly scientific is met with a blitzkrieg of aspersion, defamation, and calumny that would make Hitler jealous. Using tactics that tarnish the hard work of the honest and sincere proponents of the ToE, Nazi-like behaviours are used by a few of the fringe neo-evolutionists. For them, the words of Hitler, "Tell a lie long enough, loud enough, and often enough, and people will start to believe you", is their Motis Operandi. These few irrational evolutionists make the rest of their group look like they all are incapable of independant thought. That is most unfortunate. I have several friends who are evolutionists that I work with on a daily basis. Never has even one of them ever attempted to use the deplorable tactics that I have seen some of these neo-nazi-evolutionists employ. They would be ashamed to count them amoung their ranks. The exchange of ideas is the cornerstone of continuing knowledge. Diversity of thought is paramount to new and wonderful discovery. Fascism may not be totally dead, but it sure smells like a rotting corpse.

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And yet you DO NOT answer the question directed at you, you
simply tirade against an illusive band of neo-nazi-evolutionists!!Show me some evidence of this propaganda. If it exists there MUST
be evidence of it ... propaganda is not much use if it is
unseen/unheard or whatever.No legitimate scientist would reject a theory (even contrary to
conventional scientific understanding) provided that it is
backed up with sufficient evidence with credible interpretation
of that evidence.They may argue about it for a while, but eventually with sufficient
support for the new theory, they will accept it and reject
old theory. If that were NOT the case we would still be clinging
to the dark age concepts of a flat-earth at the centre of
the solar system.Oh by the way, when Gallileo started trying to tell people that
the earth was round and orbitted the sun, the POPE had him
thrown in prison!! How's that for a precedent for religous
conspiracy to suppress any truth that makes a religous
order look bad/less credible!!

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[This message has been edited by Peter, 03-01-2002]

What an amazing rant.

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Originally posted by Jet:
I feel no need to preach to those who have heard the Word already and have chosen to reject it.

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Great! Does that mean you'll stop preaching, since the evilutionists are all doomed anyway?

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I would say, however, that the most vehement proselytizers today are the fringe evolutionists.

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Please name one and cite something that could be construed as proselytizing.

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Their desire to propagandize the world with their doctrine while, under the guise of science, exclude all other positional beliefs that are in opposition to the ToE, is second to none.

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Actually, anyone that came up with evidence refuting ToE probably WOULD have a tough sell. However, if the evidence was good, repeatable, and valid, they'd win a Nobel Prize. The only "positional beliefs" that are attacked are the superstitions, supernatural, or pseudoscientific "beliefs" held by a vanishingly small but highly vocal and politically active minority of Protestant Christian fundamentalists. And those beliefs are only confronted when this minority tries to impose their narrow worldview on everyone else.

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The study of the ToE must always be approached from a position of acceptance in order for the study to be considered valid.

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No. The truth of the matter is that the original theory was proposed as an explanation of observations made in the natural world (not supernatural). Oddly, the more people look at it and examine the evidence - and the more science refines its tools - the better it becomes in the aggregate, although some details have had to be refined. Even Darwin didn't get everything right.

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Any approach that questions the validity of the ToE as being truly scientific is met with a blitzkrieg of aspersion, defamation, and calumny that would make Hitler jealous.

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Provide an example of any reputable scientist being the object of the kind of propaganda you assert.

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Using tactics that tarnish the hard work of the honest and sincere proponents of the ToE,

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Who, for instance?

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Nazi-like behaviours are used by a few of the fringe neo-evolutionists. For them, the words of Hitler, "Tell a lie long enough, loud enough, and often enough, and people will start to believe you", is their Motis Operandi. These few irrational evolutionists

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Again, who?

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make the rest of their group look like they all are incapable of independant thought.

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[cheap comment about creationists deleted]

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That is most unfortunate. I have several friends who are evolutionists that I work with on a daily basis. Never has even one of them ever attempted to use the deplorable tactics that I have seen some of these neo-nazi-evolutionists employ. They would be ashamed to count them amoung their ranks.

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Gee, ever thought that your friends might be the rule rather than the exception? Especially with no examples to back up your claim.

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The exchange of ideas is the cornerstone of continuing knowledge.

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True.

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Diversity of thought is paramount to new and wonderful discovery.

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True, as far as it goes. However, we have to understand that just because someone espouses a particular idea, doesn't mean it is valid. Argumentum ad populum fallacy aside, some ideas are simply wrong, not because people believe them, but simply because there is either no evidence for, or there exists contrary evidence against, them.

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Fascism may not be totally dead, but it sure smells like a rotting corpse.

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You need to show how that little soundbite even follows from your rant, let alone means anything.

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Originally posted by Jet:

The study of the ToE must always be approached from a position of acceptance in order for the study to be considered valid.

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Presumably this means you're saying the ToE relies on circular argument.How so?Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mark24:
[B] Presumably this means you're saying the ToE relies on circular argument.How so?MarkNo, I would not make this claim, although it does occur in many debates. Remaining within the context of my entire post, it addresses how the proponents of the ToE who are on the fringe, (and not the mainstream proponents), are never willing to discuss the ToE honestly with anyone who approaches the ToE as a skeptic. These fringe evo's are easily recognized by their tactics of attacking the person rather than addressing the position through the refutation of evidences presented. The ToE is never so cut-n-dried as some continually insist that it is. As I stated earlier, I have several friends who are evolutionists who I work with on a daily basis. They fully know my position as I do theirs. They have never used my opposition to the ToE as an excuse to simply dismiss any opposing view on any particular subject of discussion that we may have. If I ask a question and they know that nothing within the ToE can properly explain away my position, they readily admit it. They do not abandon their position, but neither do they disregard my position as invalid simply because it challenges the ToE. Perhaps that is why we always look forward to new and rewarding discussions. We make every attempt to show each other mutual respect.

I think that we should all ask Jet to tell us about the research he does for the "Arizona Independent Research Center for Creation and Evolution Studies".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by schrafinator:
[B]I think that we should all ask Jet to tell us about the research he does for the "Arizona Independent Research Center for Creation and Evolution Studies".What part of "NO" do you not understand? Is it the "N" or the "O"?
I am not surprised that you continue to press me for information from our little, yet growing organization. I have repeatedly denied you any access to this organization via a P.O. Box, Fax Number, Address, or E-mail. I have also stated my reasons to you several times. Our resources are not such that we are willing to deal with the continued harrassment that we received in the past when this information was made available. We have had our E-mail address overwhelmed with spam so we changed it. Our fax and phone lines, limited as they are, which were spammed during off hours to the extent that our message center was inundated with bogus letters and recorded messages, most of which were a single worded letter and an inflamatory recorded message, called in hundreds of times, from the same group of individuals.As I stated to you in the other club, a point which you seem unable to grasp, is that I would not post any information without permission from my superiors, ( which they have already denied me), not to mention that nothing I am involved in at the Research Center is any of your business. As one of my superiors pointed out to me, your continued harrassment on this issue is a very strong indication that you are indeed one member of that group of individuals that bombarded us with spam messages before, which caused us to initiate this policy in the first place. You may continue your fruitless attempts to gain information but until I actually post evidence that has been presented by our Research Center, I feel no need whatsoever to allow you even the slightest amount of exposure to our studies, research, or our organization. You may not like our policy but in the immortal words of Rhet Butler, that great character in the "Gone With The Wind" movie...........................................................""FRANKLY, MY DEAR, I DON'T GIVE A DAMN""Something tells me you still will be unable to grasp the concept that "NO MEANS NO!", so when you get the urge to continually ask for that which has continually been denied you, as it is none of your business, and your relentless desire to access us is undoubtedly so that you and your group can once again begin spamming us, and seeing as how none of our research would be offered in a froum such as this, not at any time, nor for any reason, please refer to the quotes above for clarification on why your requests are continually ignored and denied.

Jet,Could you please take it down a few notches? I'm not in a good mood this week having apparently lost SLP after temporarily suspending his posting privileges for inflammatory responses just like yours. In email he expressed his suspicion that I'm biased against evolutionists. Larry quit the Yahoo club after I admonished you both, apparently feeling the same way.This site will not serve as a venue for flame wars. The goal is information, not obfuscation. The goal is light, not heat. If you cannot maintain a moderate tone in discussions here and stay on-topic then you will not be permitted here.I think it's unfortunate that your employer was spammed, but unless you have evidence you have no call to blame people here for this. If your employer has established a reputation for antagonism anything like the one you're building here on a personal level then the attack could have come from any almost anyone offended by obnoxious behavior.Please follow the guidelines, especially rules 1 and 2 which require staying on-topic, treating others with respect, and maintaining a moderate tone. I'm inflexible on this. Next offence gets you a 24-hour suspension of posting privileges.--Percy

This is now the second post you've made wherein you alluded to so-called "fringe evolutionists" (message 36 and 41). You have, in fact, accused these unidentified agents of neo-nazi tactics. I ask you again to provide any reference, cite, website or published work showing evidence of this claim. If you have none, as I suspect, then you are not discussing the issue, merely ranting - in fact using the exact same tactics you "find appalling".I await your reply.