Creationists:: What would convince you that evolution has happened ?

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Originally posted by Godismyfather:
Nothing could convince me that evoulution happened. I'm just trying to save some people from suffering ETERNALLY with the most UNIMAGINABLE pain times 1 million in Hell.

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Excuse me but what are blabering on about there? Who's gonna suffer "ETERNALLY with the most UNIMAGINABLE pain times 1 million in Hell."? People who use the brains God gave them to realize that the biblical accounts of creation are just a bunch of recycled MYTHS from earlier mesopotamian cultures like the Sumerians?

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Originally posted by Jet:

Some of the things I noticed in this post is the obvious ignorance of God, Hell, and Satan. Now before you think I insult you with my use of the word "ignorance", understand that we are all ignorant of certain things. Ignorance should not be equated with stupidity. A stupid person is someone who is unable to learn certain things. An ignorant person is someone who is not properly educated in certain things. Example: I myself am ignorant of the concepts involved within the study of Quantum Physics, but only because I have not been properly educated in that field of study and not because I do not have the ability to learn about it. So please take no offense with my use of the term "ignorance".

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LUD: And then there are people who are willingly ignorant of the world around them,prefering to believe age old myths writen by superstitious people barely two steps removed from primates who understood NOTHING about the world they lived in and how it works,prefering to attribute everything they did not understand to divine intervention...including whatever natural catastrophy plagued them like earth quakes,floods,disease,ect...no offense of course.

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Once one accepts the concept of an All-Knowing, All-Powerful Entity that is behind the creation of the universe, and accepting the truth that this entity has a much greater understanding of exactly what is occurring around us, and why, and that this entity is fully equipped to deal with all things pertaining to the universe, man is better equipped to understand the limits of his own understanding. I accept that God is in full control, His plan of redeeming mankind is right on schedule, and even when things make little sense to me, He stills knows better than I and has all things well within His control. That is a matter of faith and not sight.

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LUD:first of all,what makes you think God's a guy? This one has always puzzled me,how people today cant see the obvious projection being made onto the divine by what is essentially a PATRIARCHAL organization(the Church)...meaning the leader of the church are guys so they decided to portray God as a male figure...interestingly enough,they try to compound male superiority by wilfully attributing the original sin to the act of woman in their creation mythology. I see absolutely no reason why a being capable of creating an entire universe would constrain itself to a male form when it could be whatever it chose to be at any moment. Also,God's plan is rather obvious i think...IT gave us life,much like a parent gives birth to its children and then build this universe where we could dwell as long as we need to. I dont see the need for a plan beyond that.

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It is also easier to recognize that it is Satan that seeks to deceive us, and not God. Why God does things the way He does is not for man to question. What lump of clay makes demands on the potter? Is not the potter greater than the clay? We are inquisitive creatures, full of questions. Sometimes, in our search for the answers, we arrive at the wrong answers. As far as Satan punishing people in Hell, I am not sure where you got this idea but it did not come from the Bible. Satan will be the one who receives the greatest condemnation for his willing rebellion against his Creator. He has no power in Hell.

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LUD:the lump of clay from your analogy is not a sentient,living being. The inquisitive nature of man is likely simply something that our parent,God,passed along to us so we would feel compelled to learn everything there is to know about the universe we currently live in. As for the Devil,i've never met Him/Her/It and so i've never been "deceived" by Him/Her/It.

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Now without getting into a philosophical discussion on the numerous concepts of Hell that exist today, most of which concern the wrong answers we often arrive at that I briefly mentioned earlier, the Bible speaks of Hell and uses three distinct references about Hell. It is a most unfortunate side-effect of "The Divine Comedy", sometimes simply referred to as "Dantes' Inferno" that has given much of the misconceptions of Hell today. If you have not read "The Divine Comedy" I suggest that you do. You will see within its' pages much of the understanding people have developed about Hell. This place called Hell is not what most people think it is. Hades, Gehenna, Tartaroos. All three are mentioned in the Bible. All three are referred to as Hell. That is unfortunate. They are not the same.

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LUD:Hell is little more than a threat invented by the leaders of the church to instill obediance in the people they want to dominate...I suspect it does not exists,save perhaps in the mind of those gullible enough to believe in such unGodly nonsense.

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Originally posted by Jet:
LUD:As for the Devil,i've never met Him/Her/It and so i've never been "deceived" by Him/Her/It.

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Of everything you posted, this was the only thing I felt deserved a reply. You idea of being deceived is puzzling. If you knew you were being deceived, you would no longer be deceived and would either change your way of thinking, or you would be a willing participant in the continuance of the deception, even though you yourself were no longer deceived. If you were being deceived, (and I am convinced that you are indeed totally and completely deceived), you would not recognize that you have succumbed to the deception and would continue as though you knew all the facts, being fully convinced of their inerrancy. That's the general idea behind deception. You are unaware that you are being duped by the one who is deceiving you. Your statement is not only puzzling, it is illogical.

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You are accusing ME of making completely illogical statements? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. I am not deceived because i have not arrested myself on any particular conclusions on the subject of evolution vs creation. I dont say with absolute certainty that evolution is THE answer because i dont KNOW with absolute certainty. For the moment,it simply looks like the most plausible explanation. But i'm still open to changing my mind on the subject if someone brings me reasonable proof NOT ONLY THAT EVOLUTION IS WRONG BUT THAT CREATION IS RIGHT,since disproving the one does not prove the other in my opinion. Thats right...just because i consider evolution the most plausible explanation of our origin does not mean that God did not create the universe...it just means,to me at least,that God created it in a way that was just beyond the compreansion of people of earlier times and they simply could not pick on the many clues left by God...so they over simplified the whole thing in terms THEY could understand. Science is slowly but surely nailing down the mechanism through which God seems to operate and explaning them to us...evolution does not try to replace or erase God...it simply shows HOW God works. It is entirely conceivable that if people 3000 years ago knew as much about the world they lived in as we do today,the biblical accounts of creation would be very different. I dont see how this point of view is in any way deceiving myself and letting the "devil" in my heart. I believe in God,love God and have a relationship with God...and it is not subject to review or rules enacted by any outside organization,holy books or organized religious cults. God gave me the ability to think so i could better decifer the world,not so i could shut my brain down and blindly accept what is easily recognizable as a PRIMITIVE understanding of the world for my anchor of faith.I also find it unfortunate that you chose not to adress my other points.

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[This message has been edited by LudvanB, 02-22-2002]

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Originally posted by Godismyfather:
I'm trying to convince people of the creationist point. I came upon this website while surfing to find info for my persuasive paper, which the topic is Creationism vs. Evolutionism (I'm for the earlier if you can't tell yet). It interested me so I started reading, then I was startled and scared to read all of the evoultionists' posts. You keep saying, I need proof, where's your proof. Well I ask you, where is your proof? I have all the proof I need, God's Word. Thomas, a disciple, was one of those seeing is believing people. After Jesus appeared to him, He said him, "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." I have more proof than that though too. I've seen angels and have heard them talk. When I was little I fell in the family pool, I had snuck outside. I couldn't swim yet and started to panic. My mom and dad thought I was in my room (I was sent there for telling my mom she was a stupid butt face) , they were in my brother's room, changing his diaper (my brother was 2 mos. old). So I had no way to get out and I was only 5. So I was really scared and I started to sink. Then all of the sudden this beautiful man was in the pool with me (he wasn't wet though, and he just sort of floated there) he was really bright and white. He said, "It's ok Victoria." And he smiled at me. Then I started floating towards the top towards the ladder. I climbed up it without really even climbing. Then the angel was next to me, took my hand and walked me to the lounge chairs. I layed on one and he stood next to me. He just stood there smiling gently at me. The next thing I remember is my mom waking me up saying, "Vicky? Victoria? Are you all right?" I said yeah but that I fell in the pool and a pretty man with a pretty white dress was in there too and stayed with me when I took my nap. My mom started crying and said "I went in your room and saw you weren't in there. Then I thought you might be in the bathroom, so when I turned back around, this man was there and he smiled and pointed out the window. I looked and saw you sleeping on the chair all wet. I turned back around and he was gone." Not only that my best friend was in the hospital dying from internal bleeding in her head (she was in an accident). She was feeling weaker and weaker and her head was literaly killing her. She was trying to stay alive until her family arived so she could say good bye. It wasn't looking likely. She was laying there, waiting when a woman appeared. Jill thought it was a volunteer. The woman said, "Jill, God has decided to let you live. He has big plans for you." Jill shot her a double take and asked, "Who are you?" Then woman smiled gently touched Jill's forehead and said, "Mary" and disapeared (along with the pain). Then her parents walked in. "Get the doctor, please." Jill said. Her parents pushed the emergancy button. The doctor's ran in. Jill insisted that she was better. The doctors insisted she wasn't, but gave in to do tests on her head. Turns out no internal bleeding, no signs that there ever was, no damage. She is now engaged to be married and is starting her own business. I have many other stories. But I have to go eat. Please, don't think I'm stubborn, I'm debating with an open mind, but closed heart if you will. All I need is God and I'll be fine. I could back down now, and leave this discussion forever, but still fill like I let God down. I would hate myself if I found out one of you died and never accepted God and went to Hell.

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Oh brother...another one. Nice little story you made up there. Ever considered going into pro fiction writing?

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Originally posted by Jet:
I have pondered this question more than I care to admit. In all actuality, I would hope that nothing could ever convince me that the ToE was correct and that the God of the Bible was just another fairy tale from the mind of demented men and women. I would find it difficult to conceptualize that this existance is all that there is and that there is no afterlife. I do not find this difficult to accept because it means no eternal reward but rather I find it difficult to accept because it would mean no eternal judgement. I find it nearly impossible to fathom that some of the most heinous crimes ever conceived and then callously committed would go eternally unpunished. I do not speak of the most obvious crimes or the criminals, Hitler, Stalin, etc.

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I refer to the crimes against little children, kidnapped, raped, and then brutally murdered, their bodies discarded like yesterdays trash. If that is the kind of world that you, or anyone else, truly desires to put your faith in then I pity your kind most above all creatures. I would not care to believe in such a world of lawlessness where there is no true consequence of action. That is why I must ultimately reject and totally deny any acceptance of such an inhumane concept as the theory of evolution. Perhaps it is the way I was raised, though I seriously doubt that is the reason I feel this way. In fact, despite my upbringing, I have far too much empathy in my being to ever pay homage to such a barbaric concept as the Godless theory of evolution. There is a reason some people refer to this concept as "EVILUTION"! No thanks, I hold to a belief that offers Hope! I'll Stick To The Word! I fully expect, and rightfully demand, judgement for the wicked! Enough Said!!!

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Boy do YECs know how to descend rapidly into utter madness over the course of a single post. How many times must it be repeated for you to understand that God and evolution ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. The Bible is NOT the word of God...it is the word of MEN TRYING TO SAY WHAT THEY UNDERSTOOD OF GOD. EVILution??? Now you've really lost your mind,pal. No such animal. Evolution is not a moral judgement but an observation of the facts. As for your "demands" of judgement over the "wicked" (which according to your statements seems to include biologists,paleontologists and just about everyone who disagrees with you),i think you're gonna have some explaning to do once you do meet God after IT's tried to teach YOU about loving thy neighbor as thyself.

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Originally posted by Jet:
Typical response from a darkened mind.

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I really think that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones,Jet. YECs really aren't the best qualified people to pass judgements on the status of other people's minds...

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Originally posted by Jet:
Typical response from a darkened mind.

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what is it you're trying to do here....prove that you can say stupid things 3 times in a row?

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Originally posted by Jet:
Typical response from a darkened mind.

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Typical response from an EMPTY mind.

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Originally posted by Jet:
Does that go for OEC's as well?

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OEC?

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Originally posted by Jet:
Evo's of above average intelligence are usually able to understand the concept of right and wrong, of good and evil. You obviously do not qualify to be included in that group. That does not come as a surprise, however. I have noticed very few of the evo's in here would qualify to be included in that group. I have seen an abundance of your kind in here though. No ability to engage in logical discussion. Just insult what you are unable to grasp. Did you take lessons from quicksink? I must wonder when I see the same sophmoric approach to what are otherwise very delicate issues. I am not surprised why so many of you continue to champion evolutionary concepts that many prominent scientists are beginning to abandon. Darkened minds remain darkened, and seek out their own kind. Nothing new under the sun.

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Have you even read the post you wrote in 69? You were going right off the deep end a la Hovind Style,stopping just short of accusing evolutionary scientists of being worshippers of Satan himself. EVILution? You consider that sensible discussion to accuse people who believe differently from you of being Evil? We treat you the same way you treat us Jet...reflect on this for a moment. Your argument is typical of the creationists darkened mind...taking the position that opponents to their views are either stupid or malovelant.