Did Jesus betray Judas?

Superficially, the story of Jesus suffering on the cross to save us from our sins sounds heroic. Anyone suffering or dying for others is normally and rightly praised. However, in this case, the meaning of the story appears to unravel under the slightest analysis.If Judas had not betrayed Jesus, or if Jesus had been tried but let off, would Jesus have still been able to save us from our sins? Would he have had to commit some kind of horribly painful suicide? Or would a simple declaration — you are all saved have done the trick? Was it absolutely necessary for people to kill him in order for him to forgive them?Was saving us from our sins some kind of serendipitous outcome of Jesus’ execution, something that wasn’t on his original agenda? "Hey, you've nailed me to a tree, but guess, what! Now that you've done this, by pure chance there is some mechanism (don't ask for the details) that allows me to save all of you for your sins! How about that!"Or was his execution always a necessary part of a grand plan to save us? Was it necessary for Jesus to betray Judas by befriending him to ensure that Judas was then in a position to betray Jesus in return, so that Jesus would get arrested, you know, against his will? (I hope you follow the plot.)As I think I’ve argued before, Judas is the real hero who suffered for us. Jesus said, It would have been better for him if had not been born, implying Judas is suffering in eternity for his endeavours that ensured the rest of us were saved. All Jesus had was a bad weekend.What if Jesus had died in some kind of accident before he was put on the cross? (Say, while he was dragging his cross through the streets he’d been squashed under a big sack of flour.) Would that have really screwed things up, or would it have saved us just as effectively as an execution on a cross?Could we, today, have had a Christianity split between the Plain and Self-Raising factions?Edited by Jumped Up Chimpanzee, : Clarity!

Hi Phage If you can accept the existence of God (whatever that is) and magic, then the above scenario could happen in theory. But what is the objective?- God makes Judas, giving him the character of a backstabber, then puts him in a position where he meets Jesus, so that Judas is then in a prime position to betray Jesus, and so Jesus is then killed, in order that Jesus can then forgive people such as Judas!!!???

Hi Flyer This is the question that interests me the most. Is there anything in the OT or anywhere else that tries to explain why it was necessary for Jesus to be executed in order for him/God to "save" us?

Exactly. Yawah is deranged. And we were worried about G.W. Bush having his finger on the button...

Humanity in general; although I understand that, according to the doctrine, it's not a given that we are all saved. But that's not really the point I was making in my OP. I was not claiming that anyone else portrayed Judas as a hero. I was using my own brain and logic to demonstrate the hypocracy and inconsistency of the Biblical story and Christian belief that Jesus laid down his life for anyone.I used Judas as a way in to the argument. I don't really think Judas saved us any more than Jesus did, because I don't believe in God or magic, and I have no idea or care as to whether or not those characters in the Bible represent people who may have really existed. My point is about the logic and consistency of the story.

Hi Peg But as indicated in my OP, why was it necessary for someone to "work against God's holy spirit" and betray Jesus in order that Jesus then suffered, which in turn allowed him to save others (but not, as you admit, the one who betrayed him)?Leaving aside for the moment the question of the actual mechanics of how Jesus was able to save people by his suffering, where is the logic and fairness in a story that requires someone to do something "bad" and suffer as a result in order for Jesus to then become the hero?Did Jesus deliberately befriend Judas and all the other disciples with the knowledge and intention that at least one of them would eventually betray him? Would Jesus have had to hang about indefinitely until one of them betrayed him? If none of them did so, would he have then gone out and befriended more and more disreputable characters until he eventually found one that would stitch him up?

I agree with your whole post except for the first possibility noted by C.S. Lewis that Jesus could have been
"Lord (exactly who he claimed to be)".It is inconceivable that such a perfect entity, as Jesus/God are portrayed to be, could have instigated such a convoluted and hypocritical scheme whereby he had to get someone in position to betray him in order to achieve something.

Could you expand on that, please (within the context of this discussion).

The plot thickens...But surely everyone involved had some kind of role. They all helped in the process of getting Jesus executed. The priests wanted him executed, Judas helped the priests by betraying Jesus to them, and the soldiers physically carried out the execution.If you regard the whole matter as fulfillment of a prophecy, all the above characters were necessary to carry it out. For one reason or another, they all wanted Jesus executed for their own ends.

Thanks for your explanation on the Gnostics. I don't want to get too side-tracked on this but, just to be clear, what was this perfect entitiy they envisioned that was something different than God of the Bible?

Thanks for that. Maybe we can analyse that view at a later date but I'd like to leave the Gnostics on the back-burner for the moment so that we don't get distracted from concentrating on the mainstream Christian views concerning Judas' betrayal, and whether or not it makes any sense.

There is a big difference between human legal law and "God's law".Sure, most people don't know the full details of human legal laws. But in modern societies those laws are written down and it is clearly noted when they were written, when they were amended, and by whom. We can all refer directly to the laws if we want to, and there is no dispute as to what the laws state. The only dispute may be how the words are interpreted. But that's why we have judges."God's law" is pure hearsay. If God and his laws really exist, why doesn't he reveal himself properly, give each human a copy of his laws, and in the case of any dispute appear as a judge of absolute authority? If we humble human beings can work out things like that, why can't he? It's pretty obvious that even if he exists, he's an idiot and doesn't deserve any attention, let alone our obedience.