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Author | Topic: Salt in Oceans | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
cavediver writes: Fundamentalist theology and liberal theology were the two extremes in Christian circles. This was the early 80's. And providing just a bit more context for Slevesque, the term "fundamentalism" as a label applied to conservative Christians emerged in the 1910's in reaction to a set of books published in reaction to concerns about liberal trends and describing what it called "The Fundamentals" that emphasized, among other key points, the inerrancy of Scripture. I personally was engaged in debates with fundamentalists about creationism years and years before I'd ever heard of Al-Qaeda, but the extremism of Al-Qaeda has brought increased attention to concerns about the potential dangers of fundamentalism in any form. The analogs between conservative Middle East Islamic countries and America's Bible Belt in terms of ignorance, backwardness and militant attitudes are not subtle. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
slevesque writes: Being in Canada I'm not aware of what happens down in the bible belt (I'm not even sure where it is lol) Doings in the Bible Belt don't make it to New England, either. It isn't because you're in Canada that you don't know this, it's because you're unfamiliar with the background details of the creation/evolution controversy. The Canadian editions of books about it are not edited to excise the portions about the origins of fundamentalism, and the web is country neutral, so the information is available to you. Summarizing this topic so far, it would seem that accurately assessing the rates of all the various inputs and outputs of oceanic salt is not a simple task. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
slevesque writes: I certainly don't come out on here saying "look at that irrefitable argument I got people". If you have people such as that on these boards, I suggest the admins ban them, seriously. They are as common as rain. Even with those who combine ignorance with exuberance and impulsivity, the better solution is probably just to provide accurate information.
I have never felt this behavior from creationists at all, CMI even has a page about their old arguments that are no longer valid to use, and so I sincerely do not know where you get this idea. You mean like the moon dust and shrinking sun arguments that we still regularly see here? And that are not abandoned even after links to webpages at places like AIG that clearly explain these fallacies (e.g., Far Out Claims About Astronomy) are provided? --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Hi Slevesque,
Could you please stop using the "Gen Reply" button when replying to a specific message? Thanks!
slevesque writes: Yeah well I don't really trust Kent hovind mind you ... We weren't talking about you. You claimed that you "have never felt this behavior from creationists at all," meaning creationists who advocated invalid arguments such as those enumerated at AIG and CMI. But you're dead wrong because we see such creationists here all the time, often, as pointed out by Pandion, because they've been influenced by Hovind, Patton or Baugh, and there are other flakes out there, too. Over the breadth of threads in which you're participating you are gradually revealing an increasingly marked disparity between the number of and degree of conviction in your opinions versus the level of your knowledge. The quality of much of your thinking is to be admired, but until your knowledge level increases it would seem that a bit more tentativity is called for. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Jason777 writes: So, the rate of evaporation would match the rate that more salt is being redeposited back into the oceans. You say the rates of addition and removal of salt match, right? If they match, then the amount of salt in the oceans does not change over time, right? Therefore the amount of salt in the oceans cannot be a measure of the age of the oceans, right?
Secondly, trace fossils need to be verified in these evaporates to confirm them as such. (Plankton,Diatoms,etc.) Bodies of water shrinking and eventually disappearing due to evaporation become so salty that only halophiles (organisms that require salty water) can survive. Fossil halophiles are of course found in salt deposits, see for example Origins of halophilic microorganisms in ancient salt deposits. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
Jason777 writes: No. I'm stating the fact that when inland seas evaporate, the water condensates into rain which only increases the rate of sodium being redeposited back into the oceans. So you think that when water evaporates from a salt water sea that it carries the salt with it? And then the salt returns to earth when the water condenses and falls to Earth as rain? Are you sure about that? Did you know that a common method of salt production involves evaporation ponds, where the water evaporates and leaves the salt behind?
The average rate is ~457 tons annually, if evaporation from inland seas increases the precipitation rate, then it would also increase the redeposition rate. Meaning, the oceans will still increase at an average rate regardless. Wind blowing across seas and oceans transports salt some distance inland - is this the kind of thing you're thinking of with your "~457 tons annually" figure? But however the salt is deposited on land, how would adding salt to the seas and oceans increase their salinity if the salt came from the seas and oceans in the first place?
Diatoms and other marine macrofossils don't just evaporate with the water; they should leave marine signatures verifying them as ancient oceans. Sedimentation beneath any sea includes fossils of the creatures that live there. Any sea that begins shrinking due to evaporation experiences an increase in salinity, and if the evaporation continues long enough then the salt begins precipitating out and forms salt deposits on the sea bottom, rather than the normal sedimentary layers consisting of sand and mud and so on. When a sea reaches a very high salinity level then only halophiles can live there. Some halophiles *are* diatoms, some aren't. The primary distinction is that halophiles occupy very salty seas where most other species cannot survive. Halophiles are what you should expect to find in salt deposits that formed from evaporated seas, and that's what we do find. --Percy
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Percy Member Posts: 22505 From: New Hampshire Joined: Member Rating: 5.4 |
I've been waiting for a response from Jason, but since it's been a few days there's something I need to clarify. I evidently misunderstood Jason's explanations and mistakenly came to believe that he thought that salt evaporates with the water. I understand now that he was just referring to the water cycle.
Jason is correct that salt constantly flows into the world's oceans, but as others have pointed out, he is ignoring that salt is also removed from the oceans, dismissing it as irrelevant. The next time he fills his bathtub he should let us know if the fact that the drain is open is irrelevant. What I think Jason was attempting to say is that once salt beds are on land that they will eventually wash back into the sea, and he is correct. But at the same time new salt beds are being formed. For example, the Aral Sea in the former Soviet Union is gradually disappearing, leaving behind vast salt plains. Oceans form when continents divide and spread apart, and salt flows into these oceans. Oceans are closed in and eventually disappear when continents collide. Continents rising and falling can also isolate seas and oceans, causing them to eventually evaporate and disappear. For example, Arches National Park in Utah sits atop a salt bed thousands of feet thick that formed millions of years ago when an ancient ocean evaporated as that region of the continent lifted. --Percy
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